Kosovo

HL Deb 18 January 1999 vol 596 cc391-404

4.45 p.m.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement on Kosovo which has been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. The Statement is as follows:

"With permission Madam Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on recent tragic events in Kosovo.

"On Saturday we received reports of a massacre at Racak, south of Pristina. General Drewienkiewicz, the leader of the British team in the Kosovo Verification Mission, visited the site. I spoke to him on Saturday afternoon.

"He reported that the bodies he saw had mostly been shot in the head or neck in what looked like an execution. Those who had been killed appeared to be of all ages, including grey-haired old men. None of the bodies he saw was wearing uniform. He saw no evidence of fighting, such as spent shell-cases. It is simply not credible that those who were killed were the casualties of a military conflict. The eye-witness accounts of international observers make it only too clear that they were murdered. In any common-sense understanding of the term, this was a war crime.

"The past decade of ethnic conflict in the former Yugoslavia is all too full of such atrocities. Nevertheless, however hardened we are by familiarity to such scenes, every Member must have been shocked and repelled by the cold and calculated character of this massacre.

"Several thousand civilians have since been reported to have fled the area. We once again face a potential humanitarian crisis as the result of Serb repression within Kosovo. Yesterday I spoke with the German, French and Italian Foreign Ministers. I obtained their agreement that our four ambassadors in Belgrade should formally lodge a joint démarche demanding that the officers of the army and police units in Racak last Friday must immediately be removed from duty while these murders are investigated. We also insisted that the International War Crimes Tribunal must be allowed to carry out an investigation in Kosovo.

"Last Wednesday I visited the tribunal in the Hague and met Judge Arbour, the Chief Prosecutor. Both she and Judge MacDonald, the President of the Tribunal, expressed warm appreciation of the strong support this Government have provided to the tribunal in terms of funds, personnel and political commitment. At the time I repeated our support for the demand of the tribunal for access to Kosovo. Earlier this afternoon, Judge Arbour attempted to cross the border into Kosovo, but was turned back by Serb border forces.

"Later today, the Security Council will meet in emergency session to consider the events in Kosovo. The British representative will demand that the Security Council makes clear its support for the war crimes tribunal, which was set up on the authority of the UN, and insists that it must be allowed access to Kosovo.

"If we are to establish peace and stability in Kosovo it is vital that we escape from the relentless cycle of ethnic atrocity followed by reprisal. Those individuals who are responsible for such murders must personally be brought to justice. That would be the most fitting response to this atrocity. It would also send a strong message to all officers serving in Kosovo that they will be held to account for any offence they commit against humanitarian law.

"I wish to salute the courage and commitment of the members of the Kosovo Verification Mission. They operate in circumstances of real risk, as was demonstrated when a British member of the team was shot at and injured last week. I am pleased to tell the House that he is making a good recovery.

"The Kosovo Verification Mission has made a real contribution to stability in Kosovo, in particular by brokering local cease-fires and negotiating refugee returns. The public attacks on it in Belgrade this weekend appear to forget that only last week the verification mission was instrumental in securing the release of eight Serb hostages.

"However, the verification mission can only succeed on the basis of the co-operation to which President Milosevic committed Belgrade in the Holbrooke package. We therefore deplore the fact that yesterday Serb security forces entered Racak, against representations by the verification mission, and opened fire on the village despite the presence in it of verifiers. We have already protested in Belgrade about that event, and tomorrow Generals Clark and Naumann will be demanding full co-operation with the verification mission.

"Those who led the massacre in Racak must bear full responsibility for their actions. Nevertheless, all those who have contributed to the political stalemate in Kosovo must bear their share of responsibility for creating the climate in which the cease-fire has crumbled.

"The Holbrooke package at the end of last year provided Kosovo with the prospect of real autonomy, including control of its own local police force, and free and fair elections supervised by the OSCE. It offered Serbia the opportunity to withdraw from an armed conflict which undermines its economy and isolates it in the world.

"A detailed paper has since been produced by the special representatives of the United States and the European Union. It proposes a three-year period in which Kosovo can develop its own autonomous assembly and democratic local communes. This interim period would then be followed by a review of the final status of Kosovo.

"I deeply regret that three months further on meaningful talks on that paper have not begun. The fault for that lies on both sides. Despite intensive pressure and repeated mediation, it still has not been possible even to get agreement on the composition of the Kosovo negotiating team. The main obstacle has been the refusal of the Kosovo Liberation Army to take part in any team which included Dr. Rugova, the elected leader of the Kosovo Albanians.

"Over the weekend I discussed with Madeleine Albright and other colleagues within the Contact Group how we can restore momentum to the political process. We are proposing an early meeting of the Contact Group, at the level of political directors, which the UK would chair.

"We have also agreed on the key messages to both sides in this conflict.

"President Milosevic must be clear that military action last autumn was only suspended because of his agreements to cease fire, to withdraw part of his military units in Kosovo, and to return the rest to barracks.

"The North Atlantic Council met yesterday and agreed that General Clark and General Naumann, NATO's two most senior generals, should visit Belgrade with a clear message that President Milosevic must comply in full with the agreements he made.

"On its part, the Kosovo Liberation Army has committed more breaches of the cease-fire, and until this weekend was responsible for more deaths, than the security forces. It must stop undermining the cease-fire and blocking political dialogue. Neighbouring countries, in particular Albania, must be more resolute in halting the flow of weapons which fuels the conflict.

"Neither side can win this war. The Kosovo Liberation Army cannot defeat the Yugoslav Army and instead of liberating the people of Kosovo can only prolong their suffering. And Belgrade cannot end the conflict by atrocities such as we saw this weekend, which will only drive more young men into the ranks of the KLA.

"The only way in which stability can be restored in Kosovo is through political dialogue. I urge both sides now to get down to meaningful negotiations on the basis of the Contact Group proposals. That is the best way in which the Kosovo Albanians can honour those who died in this appalling massacre, and in which Belgrade can show real regret at the actions of its security forces. That is also the only way in which we will prevent such atrocities from ever happening again".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

4.56 p.m.

Lord Moynihan

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement made in another place. The whole House will share the sense of revulsion and outrage at the shocking events which have taken place in Kosovo over the past three days. We join with the Minister in rejecting the claims by the Serbian authorities that their troops were engaged in a battle with the KLA and that those who died were KLA terrorists. The casualties of this supposed battle were old men, boys, at least one woman and a child, shot in the head at close range. I am certain that your Lordships' House is united in its condemnation of this most flagrant and distressing violation of international humanitarian law.

From these Benches we likewise share the Government's desire that the International Tribunal on War Crimes should be allowed to investigate this war crime and to bring to justice those responsible. However, it remains the case that the tribunal's investigations have been repeatedly obstructed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. In November, the Minister of State underlined the importance of Security Council Resolution 1207, which demanded from the FRY authorities full co-operation with the tribunal and said that the Government would ensure that the Security Council considered further action if necessary.

What further action has been taken? What action is now proposed to ensure full compliance, so that those responsible for the massacre are brought to justice and so that immediate and unrestricted access is granted to the chief prosecutor, Louise Arbour, and to international investigators, including Finnish forensic experts?

Even before this atrocity, violence in the province has been simmering over the past few weeks. Repeated ceasefire violations have threatened to unravel the Holbrooke package agreed in October. The interior and military police have not been withdrawn; full protection for civilians has not been secured; the parallel peace negotiations remain stalled, with no prospect of a breakthrough. Can the Minister tell the House what is now the status of the October agreement?

At times it has seemed that Kosovo's harsh winter has frozen the fighting more effectively than the ceasefire. Do the Government accept the prediction of NATO's supreme commander, General Wesley Clark, 10 days ago that the situation is threatening to spiral out of control and that war is likely to resume in the province during the spring, while the Serbs continue to violate their commitments to NATO and to deploy additional regular troops inside Kosovo, making a mockery of President Milosevic's promises to reduce levels of troops to pre-March 1998 levels? Can the Minister also confirm that the economic sanctions which were agreed by the Contact Group last year are still in place? What prospect is there of persuading other countries, including Russia, to impose them?

Following yesterday's emergency meeting of NATO ambassadors, to which the Minister referred, we also wish General Wesley Clark and General Klaus Naumann success in their mission to Belgrade to impress upon the Yugoslav authorities the gravity of the situation and their obligation to respect all the commitments to NATO and to the OSCE, based on UN SCR 1199. The NATO statement confirmed that activation orders for air operations remain in effect. However, little has been said today or yesterday about the possibility of military action should the condemnation of the international community once again fall on deaf ears. In October, the Foreign Secretary said that the, only way to ensure that Milosevic keeps his promises is to keep the credible threat of force hanging over him". In November, he said: we will react to any substantial breach of the ceasefire by Belgrade by reactivating the order to our military commanders to commence military action". Can the Minister clarify the current position on the prospect of military action? Has that threat issued by the Foreign Secretary been lifted or is it still in place? If it is still in place, what prospect is there of it being implemented?

In the light of what the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, in November described as, a worryingly patchy observation of the ceasefire, with faults on both sides", which has culminated in this weekend's horrific events, does the Minister accept that it was premature of the Secretary of State for Defence last month to describe NATO's decision to reduce the number of its combat aircraft pre-deployed in Italy on the grounds of the, substantial compliance being made by the former Yugoslavia security forces with UN Security Council resolutions", as a prudent management of assets". I should also like to praise the courage and professionalism of the members of the OSCE Kosovo verification mission, particularly given the difficulties and unpredictability of the conditions in which they are operating. I should like to pay tribute to the British members of the KVM who led the negotiations which last week secured the release of eight Yugoslav soldiers kidnapped by the KLA. From these Benches, we have repeatedly placed on record our concerns that a civilian monitoring mission might not have effective power to ensure Serbian compliance, particularly given the fact that the OSCE has never carried out a monitoring mission of this scale. Does the Minister agree that this apparent attack on a patrol of the Kosovo verification mission, together with the increase in the level of violence over the past weeks and, finally, Friday's massacre, underlines the difficulty of seeking to restrain violence in this tense and volatile region with unarmed monitors?

On 10th November, the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, informed the House that the projected level of 2,000 verifiers, including the full British contingent, was expected to be reached in mid-January. Can the Minister confirm that fewer than 800 monitors are currently deployed in Kosovo, 110 of whom are British? Even with a build up to 1,200 at the end of this month, can the Minister explain why, three months after the ceasefire agreement in October, the OSCE monitoring mission will have only just over half its original planned strength, despite the fact that the situation in the province has been deteriorating over the past few weeks?

In the light of recent events, can the Minister provide more information on the future of the unarmed—I emphasise "unarmed"—monitors, bearing in mind the important points made this morning by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, on the issue of what can be termed "unarmed paper tigers", to which the noble Baroness will no doubt refer shortly and with which, if they are in accordance with what she was saying this morning, we have a great deal of sympathy on these Benches?

Finally, can the Minister assure the House that the Government have abandoned their ultimatum-led policy towards Serbia? Just over a year ago the American Secretary of State told the world: It must not take us that long to resolve the crisis growing in Kosovo and it does not have to if we apply the lessons of 1991. This time we must act with unity and resolve. This time we must respond before it is too late". Can the Minister therefore give an assurance that the Government will respond before it is too late, so that when the last snows of the Kosovo winter melt away, the peace does not, thereby ensuring that 1999 does not end in Kosovo as bloodily as it has begun?

5.4 p.m.

Baroness Williams of Crosby

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in another place and I wish to say how much we appreciate the strong stand the Government have taken with regard to the war crimes tribunal for the former republic of Yugoslavia and the pressure that Judge Arbour should be allowed to enter Kosovo to investigate for herself the massacre perpetrated in Racak. Having said that, perhaps I may say, as someone who spent a week in Kosovo just before Christmas, how difficult it is, looking at the wrecked villages, the terrified villagers and the refugees fleeing into the forests, not to feel a sense of great apprehension and growing concern at what is happening in Kosovo, with both sides undoubtedly building up for what is likely to be a major confrontation, not perhaps even in the spring but possibly in a very short number of days.

I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said with regard to the admiration we feel for the verifiers. We spent some time patrolling with them. Their commitment, courage and realism are deeply to be commended. Having said that, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether it is correct that the projected figure for the verifiers has now been reduced from 2,000 to 1,400 because a number of countries have failed to meet the targets set for them to satisfy the need for verifiers. In this respect, the United Kingdom has an excellent record. Perhaps I may also add that General Drewiemkiewicz, who was present at the investigation into the massacre at Racak, is an outstanding officer, of whom we have every reason to be proud.

However, there are some weaknesses in the Statement. I want to ask questions about them, having drawn attention to them. First, it is obviously right, as the Statement says, that officers involved in the massacre should be removed from duty while investigations take place. But it is very difficult to believe, once one has spent time in Kosovo, that these actions would not have been authorised at a very much higher level. Mr. Milosevic is very much in charge of his police and of his army. Perhaps I may therefore ask, first, whether Generals Clark and Naumann, who are visiting President Milosevic tomorrow, will ensure that orders are given to the police and to the Yugoslav army that no civilians should be attacked or put at risk by those military and police forces and insist that they see that such orders are made and carried out.

Secondly, perhaps I may ask a question with regard to the innumerable resolutions that have so far been passed. I shall refer only to two. Resolution 1199 said in so many words that there should be additional measures if the requirements laid down by the UN were not satisfied and another resolution said that failure to make constructive progress would lead to the consideration of additional measures. That reminds me all too much of the remarks by King Lear in the great play of that name: I will do such things. What they are yet I know not; but they shall be The terrors of the earth". We now have to make real our resolutions.

I conclude by asking two questions. Will the Control Group consider what punitive actions might be taken against Serb military forces again resuming threats against civilians? Is there any possible use of the threat of force already covered by United Nations resolutions addressed to military bases and to police stations involved in such actions? Secondly, the Statement calls upon Albania to stop the flow of arms across its borders. The Albanian Government are totally incapable of even controlling northern Albania. let alone stopping the supply of arms. Will the Government therefore consider whether some kind of peacekeeping force might be established on the Albanian side of the border to try to prevent the constant flow of weapons which are likely to make this war much more serious when it comes?

We are looking at the prospect of a serious war in the south-eastern region of Europe, one that could begin to involve Macedonia, Greece and possibly even Turkey. I therefore commend the Foreign Secretary's strong stand. However, I plead with him to argue for his colleagues in the Control Group to work out now an alternative policy that can be brought into action if, once again, President Milosevic pays no attention to international opinion.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, for their supportive and deeply considered interventions on this very serious topic. Even before the tragic events of the weekend, I believe the whole House was aware, as the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, so eloquently pointed out, of the tremendous dangers of a conflagration arising from the situation in Kosovo which could spread well beyond the borders of the former Yugoslavia. That lends added urgency to the situation. I hope that in any case we should act with great urgency when such humanitarian outrages were taking place, especially on the Continent of Europe, but anywhere.

I shall attempt to address as many of the points raised as I can. If I miss any, perhaps I may write to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, raised the question of what the Government could do further to help Judge Louise Arbour. As the House has heard, she tried today to enter Kosovo and was refused entry. The ICTY was set up by the United Nations. It is responsible and answers to the United Nations, and it is to the UN that she will make her report. This will undoubtedly be one of the issues to be discussed at the special meeting of the Security Council in New York later today. I assure the House that we shall be energetic in trying to advance the question of what can be done to help. We will certainly co-operate with whatever decision is taken in that regard by the Security Council.

The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, asked about the status of the October agreement. The agreement is still in place. The fact that the Serbs are not fully compliant is part of the reason why Generals Clark and Naumann are going tomorrow to Belgrade to tell President Milosevic that he accepted the terms of the agreement. They will point out again what those terms should have entailed for him. They will also point out the continuing implication of a military response if the agreement is not honoured.

That answers another question put to me by the noble Lord. The ACTORD for limited air operations remains in place. Noble Lords would not expect me to comment further on when or in what precise situation force would be used. We should act in accordance with international law. I have no doubt that that will be forcefully pointed out to President Milosevic tomorrow.

On the question of sanctions, all the agreed UN, EU and Contact Group financial sanctions are still in place.

The noble Lord mentioned the difficulty regarding unarmed KVM monitors. He referred to the idea of restraining violence. The KVM is not there to restrain violence: its task is to verify and report back to the OSCE on the situation on the ground. That is the rule—not to try to place themselves between two warring factions, and even less to try to disarm them.

Warm words have been used on all sides of the House in relation to the Kosovo Verification Mission, and they are well deserved. We wish to give the monitors our thanks for carrying out an extremely difficult and dangerous job. They are doing that job very well.

Their mission has already demonstrated their ability to make a real difference to the situation on the ground. Ambassador Walker, who heads the mission, and General Drewienkiewicz, who is the British deputy head of mission, were instrumental in negotiating the local cease-fire at Podujevo during the Christmas weekend. Over the whole area they have negotiated a number of less publicised local cease-fires. British personnel played a key role in the negotiations for the safe release of the eight abducted soldiers and, as stated in the press, secured their safe release on 13th January. So they have already demonstrated that they are playing a valuable role. They cannot do everything; they certainly cannot do things that they were not intended to do. Sadly, it is very difficult for international communities and governments, as well as the monitors, to make peace between two groups of people who are determined to go to war with one another.

The strength of the OSCE monitors was raised by both the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and the noble Baroness. Perhaps I may clarify the situation. The KVM chief of operations, Major General Drewienkiewicz, expects that 2,000 personnel will eventually be deployed. There are currently 855 personnel deployed. The general has requested a period of consolidation for the staff who are already deployed. He anticipates a total of around 1,200 personnel on the ground by the end of January. Some of the personnel yet to be deployed are specialist staff, including police trainers and election organisers, who will be required following a political settlement rather than at this unhappy stage.

Although we have tended to skirt around the fact, as the noble Baroness observed from her visit, both sides are preparing for war. That can be observed in everything one reads about the situation. That is what we must try to address. Generals Clark and Naumann will take a very strong message to President Milosevic and they will wait to see his reaction after tomorrow. We cannot repeat more strongly, and we take every opportunity to try to get the message across to the KLA, that this is a war that it cannot win. The trouble is, this is a war that neither side can win. The challenge for us all is to get that message across to both sides.

5.19 p.m.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, the atrocious incident that gave rise to the Statement occurred after my Question last Thursday and the helpful reply then from the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, on behalf of the Government. I asked about the unarmed monitors. I now ask: will the safety of those monitors be constantly borne in mind? Many of them are British. Has the NATO force standing by in Macedonia yet reached its proposed numbers, and is it ready to go in and help to bolster the monitors, if necessary? They could be subject to resentment at the international reaction because it is clear that detachments of Serb army and police appear to become completely out of control, as in this latest atrocity. I should be grateful if the Minister could address that point.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, for that question. The NATO Extraction Force is now fully staffed and became operational on 15th January, and that is a very relevant factor. The NATO force was put in place because we knew it was necessary, but we should emphasise that the existence of that force and the fact that it is now fully operational does not take away from Belgrade the primary responsibility for ensuring the safety and security of verifiers and all international personnel in Kosovo. It is important to keep the spotlight firmly on President Milosevic and his forces. As the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, said, it sometimes appears that these forces become out of control. On the other hand, as the noble Baroness said, she doubts that much is done on the ground that is not sanctioned by the High Command in Belgrade. We do not know where the truth of all that lies; all we know is that we have the right to expect a well disciplined army and police force and that they should protect the safety and security of verifiers and all international personnel. I can at least assure the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, that the NATO Extraction Force is now fully manned.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, I apologise for not having been in my place for the opening phrases of the Statement. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, suggested that a peacekeeping force should be stationed in northern Albania. I support that suggestion and would even go a stage further. Would it not be a good use for NATO forces—for example, those now in Macedonia—and other rapid reaction groups to establish one or more safe havens within Kosovo? These might be located either on the frontier with Macedonia or the frontier with Albania. Their purpose would be inter alia to enable refugees to return and to enable rehabilitation of the large numbers of the local Kosovan population who have been internally displaced. Will the Baroness and her colleagues consider the size and scale of such safe havens? I envisage that they would he no larger than could be effectively controlled by the forces available for that purpose.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, for that suggestion, which we shall consider. Safe havens have pluses and minuses. We have some experience of them in Iraq, which was a special situation. I do not say that this is the case with the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, but sometimes safe havens are thought of as an easy solution. In fact, they sometimes bring more problems than they solve. However, I shall consider his suggestion.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, can the noble Baroness say a little more about British policy on the Security Council resolution to be debated later today and in particular what advance the drafting will make on Resolution 1203, which has already called for the prompt and complete investigation, including international supervision and participation, of all atrocities committed against civilians? Since Milosevic has ignored that demand, do the Government not consider that the Security Council will have to go further in bringing pressure to bear on him to persuade him to comply with that demand, bearing in mind the refusal to admit Mrs. Arbour this afternoon? Will the Government consider, for example, extending the remit of the Extraction Force so that it could go into a place such as Racak and occupy it temporarily so as to permit Mrs. Arbour and other investigators of the international tribunal to carry out the duties prescribed by the Security Council, even if the Serbians try to prevent that?

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, in reply to the first point of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, about the new Security Council meeting, I do not wish to anticipate those discussions. We are consulting our partners, and will continue to do so until and during the meeting, on an appropriately robust Security Council response and decision on all aspects, including the question of Judge Arbour and how to make President Milosevic comply with the agreements which he has already made. We are not trying to broker new agreements, as the noble Lord knows.

As to the question of the Extraction Force going into Kosovo, I believe that, if the noble Lord reflects, he will immediately recognise some of the problems of such an action, which would involve crossing borders. The situation is extremely difficult. As I understood it, the noble Lord was talking about occupying a village. I do not believe we are anywhere near considering such a very serious step, and I hope that we may not have to do so.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, have the Minister and her colleagues, and their allies, considered whether the war crimes approach is likely to be an effective one? After all, it is now some nine years since the troubles in the former Yugoslavia began. During that period many war crimes have been committed. We know that, for instance, major war criminals already indicted, such as Mladic and Karadzic, are still at liberty because they are protected by the government of Serbia. Is it not understandable, therefore, that people in Kosovo will hardly be encouraged by an approach which treats these atrocities as the isolated actions of units or individuals? Is it not, therefore, inevitable that the determination of President Milosevic to retain control of as much of Bosnia as he can and the whole of Kosovo is at the core of this situation? I do not know how it is to be faced, but, unless it is faced, is not the war crimes approach simply likely to produce further discouragement?

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, for that intervention. As always, his point is very valid in many ways. Of course, the International War Crimes Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia is not a perfect answer and it is not being allowed to be as effective as it could be, but I do not think that means that it has not achieved quite a lot and will not achieve more. The noble Lord, Lord Beloff, said that after all it was clear that everything that happened at local level resulted from policy at the top. That is true. It is also true that that cannot mean that local commanders, whether the police or army, are absolved of responsibility when they act in a way that the international community agrees is outside the bounds of acceptable human behaviour. That is what the ICTY must be about. It is up to the ICTY how high up the scale of responsibility it goes when it indicts people, but one cannot absolve people at local level.

Baroness Ludford

My Lords, the Minister rightly said that it was most important to proceed to political talks. While it is deplorable that the KLA refuses to take part in anything that includes Dr. Rugova, can she assure the House that no signal is being given to the Kosovan Albanians that the limits of their ambitions should be autonomy and that the review of the final status of Kosovo, which it was envisaged would take place after a three-year period, will be genuinely open to all possibilities, including independence? There has been a feeling in the West that to keep open the prospects of independence for Kosovo is destabilising. The alternative view, which I put forward when I initiated a short debate on this subject in October, is that to rule out Kosovan independence is destabilising and that to allow Milosovic disproportionate leverage, with the instability and resentment that that creates, is unhelpful to any political talks that take place. I realise that we are considering the present crisis, but it is important to the current situation to look forward politically. I put that point in my supplementary to the Question that I asked last Thursday and I do not believe that I received an answer from the noble Baroness, Lady Symons. I should like to have an assurance that we do not rule out Kosovan independence.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, the interim settlement that has been negotiated, which is based on the Contact Group paper, provides for substantial self-government for the people of Kosovo with a Kosovan parliament and government, and gives substantial powers to communes and, crucially, control of local police by local authorities. However, the noble Baroness is quite right that that settlement should also preserve the territorial integrity of the FRY. The clear position of the EU Contact Group is that it supports the enhanced status with a large degree of autonomy for Kosovo within the FRY and it must include meaningful self-administration. Whatever happens, the status quo is clearly unsustainable. The US, with the support of the UK, is spearheading Contact Group work on the interim agreement.

If we ever reach a stage where both sides negotiate, they will be free to negotiate whatever they want. I do not believe that in that situation independence would be ruled out. We support any solution that is freely negotiated between the parties, but I do not believe that independence is a likely outcome. It is not a question of completely ruling out or ruling in anything. It is true that, since the problem escalated following the election of President Milosovic, attitudes in Kosovo have hardened considerably. It is undoubtedly the case that many people in Kosovo who then only wanted back the autonomy that had been taken away now want independence. It is a matter of achieving what is fair and can be sustained. If it was freely negotiated by both sides, there would be no reason why independence would not he acceptable to the world community, but I believe that to be a highly unlikely result.

Lord Chesham

My Lords, can the noble Baroness the Minister confirm that the verifiers were kept away from the area of this massacre at the weekend and given access only at the behest of the warring parties? A number of us are exceedingly concerned that the mistakes made in the first peacekeeping operation in Bosnia six years ago are being repeated in Kosovo. Yet again we have an under-equipped, under-supported monitoring force in place. A UN commander in Bosnia once put it that the force was standing around in the middle of somebody else's war. Are there any intentions to protect the monitors appropriately?

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, I believe that comparisons with UNPROFOR in Bosnia are entirely misleading. Both the OSCE and NATO verification missions have very strong operating mandates with clear and linked objectives. The verifiers are observing and reporting on the ground. The situation is different. I believe that we have already dealt with the question of protection of the verifiers. They are there to do a particular job and are not armed. They know what they have to do and they have a mandate to do it. There is a NATO Extraction Force waiting in the wings which one hopes will not have to be employed. Up until almost the present day they have been doing rather well in the context of their very difficult mandate. One hopes that one is not seeing the whole thing fall apart this weekend. One will know more when Generals Clark and Naumann return from Belgrade after tomorrow.

Baroness Ryder of Warsaw

My Lords, may I say how impressed I have been by the comments of the Minister and other noble Lords? I declare an interest. Since 1945 I have worked throughout the former Yugoslavia and established 22 homes and hospitals for the sick and handicapped of all ages out there. The late Marshal Tito told me several times before his death that war was inevitable between the Serbs and Kosovo. During the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s I witnessed and was involved in the fighting. Marshal Tito endeavoured to persuade the fierce, obstinate and strong Serbs to allow Kosovo to become an independent republic but they continuously refused. In my humble opinion, all the strong and excellent efforts made by NATO and others will not change the mind and intentions of Milosovic. I am always an optimist but sadly in this situation both in the past and now, and in the future, I cannot say that I am hopeful, for I know the situation out there only too well and the terrible hatred shown by the Serbs. I wish those who endeavour to create peace all possible success.

Baroness Ramsay of Carvale

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Ryder of Warsaw, for that intervention, with her wide knowledge and background of such conflicts. We all have to try to stay optimistic.