Dartford-Thurrock Thames Crossing: Toll Charges (Hansard, 15 February 1999)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Lord Whitty)
My Lords, the current legislation provides for tolling to continue for the purposes of meeting the financial objectives of the concessionaire and allowing a further year in which the Secretary of State may establish a maintenance fund. After engineering assessments have established the need for substantial maintenance work to be carried out by the concessionaire, it is now predicted that these purposes will be met by September 2002. This is about nine months later than the estimate we gave last June.
463 In the integrated transport White Paper, A New Deal for Transport: Better for Everyone, published last July, the Government stated that they would consult on whether and how continued charging at the Dartford-Thurrock crossing could contribute to integrated transport objectives.

§ Lord Dixon-Smith
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the financial arrangements for that crossing, which mirror those for estuarial crossings throughout the United Kingdom, have been a justification for using specific revenues to provide infrastructure which would otherwise not be attainable? Does he not further agree that having achieved those financial objectives there is a moral obligation in that the original intentions of those who created the crossing—Essex and Kent County Councils under the then existing legislation—was to allow it to become toll-free?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, as regards the noble Lord's first point, I agree that the crossing has been a great success in the financial terms set out at the time. My congratulations to Essex and Kent County Councils would be appropriate. Although I said that the estimate we gave last June has been put back for nine months, the original time estimate for meeting the financial obligations has been brought forward by three years.
Further tolling has become part of a wider assessment. We are examining whether tolling would be appropriate on motorways either for new constructions or more generally in terms of road-user charging. At an appropriate point, we will consult on that in relation to Dartford and more generally.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, could we go back to the prison Question as we have time left?

Noble Lords
No!

§ Baroness Seccombe
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it was a specific intention of the Bill that there would be a maximum of 20 years before there would be toll-free passage for everyone travelling over the bridge and through the tunnel? Does he further agree that if that were not to be adhered to it would be a breach of trust unless legislation was brought before both Houses of Parliament and agreed to?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, were we to go down the road of future tolling on the Dartford-Thurrock crossing or anywhere else, this House and another place would have to consider new legislation. It would not be possible, nor would the Government intend, to extend tolling in any such circumstances without bringing forward new legislation. We will consult on that in relation to the Dartford crossing and elsewhere.

§ Lord Islwyn
My Lords, will the Minister consider the very heavy tolls on the Severn bridges. Both bridges are oversubscribed and apparently the required revenue will be raised 12 years before it was originally 464 anticipated. Bearing in mind that the Severn bridges carry motorways, is not the same principle involved here?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, as I understand it, the same principle does apply in relation to the Severn bridges. However, we are considering—as did the previous administration—the possibility of extending some degree of tolling more generally on the motorway network, either for new projects or in pursuit of our general objective of reducing road traffic and providing an incentive for more appropriate modes of transportation. Both would require new legislation.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, will the Minister consider using any excess revenue from the bridge tolls to improve education in prisons?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, that was a good try! I suspect these are matters of virement and therefore matters for the Chancellor of the Exchequer in another place. However, I doubt that it will happen in this period of comprehensive spending review.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister can help me. I was under the impression between 1979 and 1997 that the Labour Party was opposed to tolls on bridges. Am Ito take it from the reply I have just heard that it is now in favour of them?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, no. We are looking at the possibility of using tolling—as were the previous regime—in our town centres as has been reported at some length both in this place and in another place in relation to the integrated transport policy. The motorway network, including bridges, tunnels and other stretches, may be subject to tolling in those circumstances. However, we would wish to use tolling not as a general revenue raiser but as a means of providing an incentive to divert traffic to more appropriate modes which, unfortunately, was not an objective pursued by the previous government over their whole period of office.

§ Lord Dixon-Smith
My Lords, the Minister discussed the possibility of charging for the use of roads. Perhaps I may press him a little further. We are led to believe that when the issue of congestion charging and, more importantly, car park charging is introduced in urban areas it will be with the specific intention that those revenues should be used to improve public transport so as to encourage people, other than the non-inducement of the actual tax, to use public transport. Will not the Minister therefore develop that idea a little further to the point where, if no further improvements can be made to "public transport", there should be no further charge?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, we have a long way to go before sufficient revenue has been raised for all the infrastructure required to improve our public transport system to the extent that a major diversion would take 465 place from our roads. Wherever charging might be contemplated, the intention would be to plough it back into the transport infrastructure in one form or another.