HL Deb 02 February 1999 vol 596 cc1461-86

5.52 p.m.

Lord Gladwyn rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that current planning procedures respecting proposals for new commercial airports take adequate account of environmental considerations and national policy requirements.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the White Paper of last July, A New Deal for Transport, announces the preparation of a new UK airports policy for the next 30 years. But, apart from six regional studies exclusive of the south-east, this national policy must await the outcome of the Heathrow Terminal 5 inquiry. The timescale of the inspector's report and the subsequent Minister's decision is such that the new policy can hardly be determined within two years, and might even be postponed until after the next general election. Meanwhile civil aviation is roaring ahead, boosted by the commendable policy of open access.

Unsurprisingly, this forceful increase has provoked growing concern about aircraft noise. Despite the progressive introduction of quieter engines, aircraft noise escalates faster than with the mere number of movements, due to the introduction of larger aircraft and to airport congestion involving holding patterns in controlled airspace. Whatever the outcome of the Terminal 5 inquiry, it is clear that considerations about noise, pollution and traffic will have to be given greater weight in the delicate balance between economic expansion and environmental restraint.

As one who worked for many years in air transport, I applaud its recent success, though I feel that, for the future, an unquestioning attitude towards demand-led projections is inconsistent with the concept of sustainable development, as has been seen in the case of roads—a point recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, in his debate on transport in your Lordships' House last week. I also appreciate that the Government are taking action on the question of noise, for instance, by the Noise Monitoring Advisory Committee, and that the White Paper envisages enhanced responsibilities for the CAA in noise control. But my concern today is with the actual and potential licensing of new commercial airports. In practice this relates to a number of former Ministry of Defence air bases.

Those sites, rendered redundant by the end of the Cold War, are scattered around the country in locations set by military strategy. I shall briefly summarise the position of five of them, all except one being in the south-east. I pass over the future of Northolt, except to note that in a debate about it in another place last June the Minister affirmed that, although no decision is likely in the near future, no option has been discarded. It is, of course, extensively used for civil flying.

At Manston in Kent, where the RAF has allowed civilian flights for over 10 years, the MoD is about to conclude a sale of the site to Wiggins plc. Wiggins intends to set up an airport with the most advanced systems, and is in negotiation with the CAA for a licence. But there is to be no planning application for this new airport, which will involve 24-hour operations, because the MoD has persuaded the Thanet District Council that none is needed, on the grounds that there has been no material change of use. At Farnborough, where the MoD has leased the site to TAG, business executive flights have been operating since 1990. The Rushmoor District Council expects TAG to submit a planning application which will involve a threefold increase in movements and with larger aircraft, though with a night curfew.

At Finningley near Doncaster the MoD first negotiated with non-aviation interests, including the Home Office which wanted a prison. That was fiercely opposed by the metropolitan borough council and then dropped by the present Government on coming to power. Proposals were then put forward for a commercial airport, and last year the MoD agreed to sell the site to Peel Holdings, subject to contract. Peel Holdings has yet to submit a planning application, but has made it clear that its plan will be for 24-hour operations for freight and passenger aircraft.

At Alconbury in Cambridgeshire the former USAF base is still owned by the MoD, which has formed a joint venture with a consortium called Alconbury Developments, led by BAA. This consortium originally submitted an application for a large freight distribution centre, co-ordinating road, rail and air. In March of last year the aviation element of this was dropped in the face of political pressure. Although it would accordingly necessitate a fresh application, apprehension about the aviation potential remains as strong as ever, for three reasons. First, the present application includes the phrase "retention of existing flying use". Secondly, the runway will remain unobstructed. And thirdly, the BAA is still heavily involved.

I come now to Bentwaters in Suffolk—a county in which I live, though well away from Bentwaters. This was the subject of a short debate in your Lordships House in June 1996, initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges. He criticised the MoD for going for the highest possible sale price without sufficient regard for environmental issues. These are especially sensitive at Bentwaters because the whole of the airport operating area lies within an area of outstanding natural beauty. The company which at that time was negotiating for purchase had no plans for aviation; indeed, it intended to dig up the runway. But in the event it withdrew, and the site was then sold to Bentwaters Investments Ltd, which, in May of last year submitted a planning application, in the name of Anglia International Airpark, for a maintenance and testing facility for all types of aircraft, together with scheduled services, charter flights, private flying and helicopters. This application, at present on hold pending a public inquiry into the Suffolk Coastal District local plan, has served to rally public opinion in defence of the inviolability of the AONB, amid enormous publicity.

In all these instances aviation protest groups have been formed. At Alconbury they scored a victory; at Bentwaters they have already obliged the local council to lower its sights and are fighting the whole principle of an airport at the local plan inquiry. At Manston they have been completely frustrated and at Finningley they represent only a small minority.

The strict democratic planning procedures may have been duly observed, but the whole system is open to criticism. First, there has been throughout a lack of transparency by the MoD in its selection of purchasers. The public have not been informed about what alternative bids might have been involved. Secondly, the question of whether previous military use establishes a precedent for future aviation use is unclear. Thirdly, although operational limits may be imposed, they can usually be breached by subsequent demand: one has only to look at Stansted. Fourthly, noise enforcement is very uneven, ranging from the strict control of the London-designated airports to no control at others. That is why several of the MoD sites are so attractive for the operation of noisy freighters or for jet engine testing, such sites not being available in neighbouring Europe. Fifthly, the planning procedures may have been made within the framework of county and local plans—though even that is very questionable at Bentwaters—but they have been made piecemeal because there is no national or south-east regional policy. Hence the provision of what are potentially major new airports in an entirely haphazard way.

A sixth criticism is that these airfields were only built on these sites in the first place as a measure of extreme national emergency without any planning considerations whatsoever. It is understandable that their relatively compact domestic and maintenance areas should be developed for civilian housing and other enterprise: it would be deplorable to have ghost towns. But their operating areas—vast expanses of as much as 1,000 acres, more grass than concrete—are, on the face of it, more suitable for environmentally friendly enterprise. To use them for a new town, as was first proposed at Upper Heyford, or for a civil airport, is quite another matter.

The stated intention of the White Paper is to maximise the use of regional airports to relieve the pressure on the congested airports of the south-east. But an integrated transport system also demands that some of that relief should come from a shift from air to rail for ultra short-haul or interlining journeys. We must therefore avoid unnecessary proliferation of regional airports whose environmental damage is less justifiable than that of the major hub airports on which the prosperity of our civil aviation, and hence of our national economy, primarily depends.

My Question, as originally tabled, asked the Government to defer the authorisation of such new airports, but I recognise that that is impracticable. So I merely ask: are they satisfied with what is happening?

6.2 p.m.

Lord Marlesford

My Lords, I believe that we owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for enabling us to debate this important subject. I intend to confine myself to Bentwaters, to which the noble Lord has referred, and the proposal to establish there a new regional airport. In doing so I declare an interest both as a resident of East Suffolk and, more importantly, as president of the Suffolk Preservation Society.

The saga of the disposal of Bentwaters reflects little credit on either the MoD or on the previous government. The problems have arisen because no government has so far accepted that, in disposing of state-owned land, the maximisation of cash received should not be the overriding consideration. That Treasury policy leads to environmental anarchy.

It is hard to imagine a less suitable place for a new regional airport than this remote site on the Suffolk coast. It is a place of outstanding beauty and solitude where by day and by night the wide Suffolk skies are at their finest and the cry of the curlew breaks the stillness.

As the Countryside Commission put in evidence last week to the public enquiry into the Suffolk Coastal Local Plan, It is our view … that [the District Council plan] in supporting the re-use of RAF Bentwaters for civilian aviation purposes is attempting to support a major form of development within the AONB which is not compatible with the guidance contained in PPG7 nor with the purpose for which the Suffolk Coasts and Heaths AONB was designed". The brownland released when a military airport becomes redundant—and I do not include the greenland around the actual runways—should indeed be re-used for development especially for housing. This can make a contribution to reducing the housing pressure on greenfield sites. Businesses, too, should be encouraged; although mainly the smaller, high-tech businesses.

The new owner of Bentwaters, Mr. Mouawad, paid his £9 million for the 1,100-acre Bentwater site to provide 5,000 houses and an industrial estate. That could all have been welcomed. But then Mr. Yann Borgstedt of Anglia International Airport, suggested that a regional airport at Bentwaters could be icing on Mr. Mouawad's cake.

It is said that another regional airport is needed in the south-east. That is in addition to Stansted, Luton, City Airport, and Marshall's at Cambridge and Norwich. Taken together, those five provide a multitude of aviation services within 100 miles of Bentwaters. I doubt whether a further airport in the south-east can be justified. If it can, a more obvious location would be Alconbury near Huntingdon, which at least adjoins a major junction of Britain's trunk road and motorway network.

It is said that Bentwaters would provide jobs for local people. As at December 1998, the three local constituencies (Suffolk Coastal, Central Suffolk and South Suffolk) all have a full employment rate on the Beveridge criteria of 3 per cent. or less. Indeed an airport, because of its environmental impact, would destroy far more local jobs in the tourist industry than it could create.

There are few parts of England less well provided with transport links. Bentwaters is linked to the London-Yarmouth A.12 trunk road by winding country lanes. The Department of Transport is actually in the process of de-trunking the A.12 north of Ipswich, much of which is still single carriageway with a particularly bad fatal accident record. The rail line to Lowestoft, north of Ipswich, has long been a single-track branch line with a fragile tram-style passenger service passing about two miles from Bentwaters. There is thus none of the public infrastructure which a new regional airport would need. I doubt that the Government have the funds to provide it.

When Bentwaters was a military airfield the noise of aircraft was tolerated for the defence of the realm. It was known that one day it would end. The noise pollution, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, from a new civil airport would intrude dramatically over at least an eight-mile radius covering Aldeburgh, Saxmundham, Woodbridge and Framlingham. This would probably bring to an end the world famous musical centre at Snape, home of the Aldeburgh festival which, along with Edinburgh, is perhaps the most important in Britain. Last week 13 leading figures in the arts world publicly condemned the airport proposal. I may say that in the days of the American airbase there were special arrangements not to fly during concerts.

There has been widespread cross-party local condemnation of the proposal. The Suffolk Coastal District Council, which no one party controls, is deeply divided and not on party lines. It is rumoured that independent anti-airport candidates may well stand for some of its constituencies in the May elections this year.

I understand that the developers have suggested that they were in some way misled by the officers of the local council who, in private discussions before the final sale of the property, may have indicated that they favoured a commercial airport on the Bentwaters site on the grounds that it would help to "put Suffolk Coastal on the map". To clarify that, the council should agree to the disclosure of the records of all such meetings. To the developer I would merely say "Caveat emptor".

If any unqualified encouragement was given to the developers it was inappropriate for three reasons. First, in a matter of such importance it would be wrong to pre-empt the views of councillors, and officers must not become parti pris. Secondly, such an intrusive development as a civil airport in an AONB would seem, prima facie, to be quite out of place and to be contrary to public policy. Thirdly, the council officials ought to have anticipated the considerable opposition there was bound to be to such a proposal. I understand that of 2,000 letters that the council has received on Bentwaters fewer than 50 were in favour of the airport.

I am concerned that there may be a feeling among planning officers, not just in Suffolk, that the general public's views on such matters as this should count for little. It is an attitude that was certainly echoed in some remarks made to me recently by a senior Suffolk County Council officer. I was reminded of the famous statement made in 1947: the gentleman in Whitehall really does know better what is good for the people than the people know themselves". The author was Douglas Jay. While that famous name still lives in your Lordships' House, I trust I can say with confidence that that attitude has no place in the mind of New Labour!

I turn to another serious concern, which arose on a number of occasions in various counties while I was Chairman of CPRE. It is that councillors may be warned not to vote against any advice they may receive from their council officers in case in a subsequent public inquiry costs are awarded against the council.

I have consulted a number of authorities and I can say that it would only be if such a view of councillors were to be unreasonable that there would be any risk of such costs being awarded. That would not apply in this case as the proposed airport would be in an AONB, against laid down public policy.

The developers have now indicated that they would be prepared to reduce the number of flights that they would apply for. I trust councillors will see through, and reject, this toe-in-the-door tactic.

History shows that airports grow where airports are. There is a very strong presumption in favour of allocating additional capacity to existing sites rather than establishing new facilities; a principle I for one would support. If the district council does not reject a regional civil airport at Bentwaters, I believe that it would be an irreversible step to a long-term and permanent change, and indeed destruction, of the character and beauty of one of the jewels of rural England.

6.11 p.m.

Lord Bridges

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Gladwyn for tabling the Question and for his helpful introduction of it. Like him and the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, I live close to the airport at Bentwaters and have raised the subject in the House on previous occasions. For the present, I propose to refer strictly to the Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, and to refer only to the matters relating to it.

First, perhaps I may say a few words about airport policy in general. The grant of permission for a new commercial airport is a significant decision in any country, but particularly so in our case, given the relatively small size of our densely populated island and the priority we now rightly accord environmental policy. Also, we are at a critical hinge in international air travel. We still enjoy, at present, the advantage of being the Clapham Junction of international civil aviation.

That is not unlike the role we had in the last century in international shipping when the best route for most cargoes crossing the wide oceans of the world to continental ports was via transhipment in the Port of London. We lost that role in the post-war years for reasons which, in Sir Thomas Browne's words, are "too sad to insist on." If we are to retain our current position in international civil aviation, we need to have an airports policy which meets the case. We also have to protect our market position from erosion by those, whether in the United States, Brussels or elsewhere, who wish to capture our existing markets. We shall have a chance to discuss those aspects when we come to debate a recent report of the EC Select Committee, printed as House of Lords Paper No. 56.

Meanwhile, I, too, welcome the promise in the Government White Paper, A New Deal for Transport, that a review of airports policy is in hand. Perhaps the Minister can tell us how the review is progressing and when it may be concluded. This is an extremely important area of policy. Most of the decisions taken in the past 40 years—some of them of great difficulty when one thinks of the controversy over Stansted and Maplin—have served us rather well and it is now time to think ahead. The point I seek to emphasise is the need for national policies on civil aviation, determined by government and communicated to Parliament, to be properly reflected in the decisions taken by individual planning authorities. As I shall now try to explain, that does not seem to be happening at present.

Let us take, for example, the fundamental question of airspace. Our local would-be airport at Bentwaters, north east of Ipswich, is close to a number of military bases, particularly RAF Woodbridge and Wattisham. We believe that Woodbridge is to be retained by the Ministry of Defence for use as a base for combined inter-service exercises and both bases are to be used to train pilots on military versions of the Apache helicopter. Therefore, it is important to know whether these activities would be compatible with plans for a resumption of flying at Bentwaters, only three miles or so from Woodbridge.

I sought information from the CAA, the DETR and the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence. All were extremely polite, but they have been unable to provide me with information. The planning authority is revising the local plan, apparently with a view to accommodating the developer's proposals, but, so far as I know, the authority lacks reliable information about the availability of airspace. I was informed by Glenda Jackson, Under-Secretary of State at the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, in a letter of 4th September, that: airspace and licensing are matters for the CAA and are not material planning considerations". Thus, the local authority, in considering whether to permit a commercial airport in its territory, will be able to consider road and rail access; employment; economic benefits and disbenefits; noise; and the various forms of pollution. However, it is not allowed to know whether there is available airspace for aircraft to use. That comes into the frame, apparently, only after the planning authority has made its decision.

A similar situation arises over protection of the AONB. The airport site is in an AONB and thus enjoys the protection of PPG7, which specifically prohibits major commercial development within its boundary except in the case of national need and the absence of an alternative site. No evidence has been submitted by the developer on either count. The local planning authority has correctly informed the local office of the DETR, GOER in distant Bedford, that it has received a planning application which, if approved, would be a departure from the county structure plan. I suggested to the DETR that it might inform the local planning authority of its attitude while the matter was still under discussion so that the Government's views could be taken into account. But the Minister of State, Mr. Caborn, informed me in a letter of 27th January that that cannot be done as it would be contrary to the "plan-led" system. The DETR will not act until the local planning authority informs it that it is "minded to approve" a planning application contrary to policy in the AONB.

Meanwhile, the director of planning, tourism and leisure of the district council has presented his statement of case to the local planning inquiry. On the AONB, this document states the following: In accordance with statutory requirements, the GOER has been consulted at each of the stages throughout the preparation of the alteration to the local plan and has, at no stage, objected to the policies for Bentwaters, including the policy for the airport. It must therefore be assumed that GOER do not consider that, in taking all matters into account, the aviation polices are an unacceptable exception to the normal AONB policy". I quote that passage verbatim as it shows, quite conclusively, I think, that the department's silence has been interpreted by the planning authority as implying approval. That has been adduced in a formal document in support of authorisation of a civil airport in the AONB in the local planning inquiry. Was that the department's intention? What, I wonder, did it say to the director of planning? No doubt the department intended to behave with its usual scrupulous impartiality. But, given the misunderstanding which has clearly occurred, I suggest that the DETR Minister should write to the chairman or chief executive of the council telling him the truth and setting the record straight. I should be glad to give the Minister a copy of the documents in question.

I find the situation deeply unsatisfactory. It surely must make better sense for the Government to form the view of the implications of a large new commercial airport in such a sensitive place, to tell the planning authority of their opinion and to give some guidance about essential matters directly relevant to the decision. Otherwise, we may well end up in the ludicrous situation of an airport having the capacity for apparently unrestricted future growth which has been approved by the planning authority contrary to the spirit of the letter in PPG7, thus permanently damaging the AONB, contravening the RAMSAR, to which we are parties—

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton

My Lords, the problem is that speakers are consistently running over time with additional questions for the Minister. My concern is that my noble friend may not have time to answer the questions unless other speakers cut short their speeches.

Lord Bridges

My Lords, I understand that my noble friend Lord Colville is not going to speak, so there will be time for the Minister to reply. I shall repeat my last sentence. Otherwise, we may end up with a ludicrous situation with an airport which has apparently unrestricted future growth, approved by the local planning authority, contrary to the spirit and letter of PPG 7 thus permanently damaging the AONB; contravening the RAMSAR convention; infringing the EC habitats directive; and all that when it may ultimately appear that there is no airspace available for the aircraft.

That does not fit well with the Government's stated intentions on environmental policy. It appears to be the case that some government agencies—the CAA and even English Nature—do not submit evidence to local authorities or public inquiries on planning matters as they lack the resources and, indeed, the inclination to do so. However, we could avoid that particular sector of Cloud-cuckoo-land if the Government were to change their practice, which is simply a change in administrative procedure. I invite them to do so as a matter of some urgency. A planning system may be a fine concept but it cannot be expected to operate correctly unless supplied with accurate information. That really matters in relation to airports.

6.21 p.m.

Baroness Ludford

My Lords, governments have come round to the idea that for roads, the old predict and provide approach is no longer feasible on environmental grounds. Demand for road space must be managed. But even in the bad old days of merely responding to demand, there was at least a national road plan, even if it was simply to build more.

For air travel and airports, the situation is even worse than it used to be for roads. Not only is there no overall national strategic plan for airports, with each application to build or expand treated individually, as other noble Lords have pointed out, but the Government's response seems still to be to meet the demand rather than to manage it.

As a London person, I wish to move swiftly from the general to the particular in order to discuss Heathrow Terminal 5. The need for a strategic approach is amply demonstrated by its absence prior to a decision on Terminal 5. How can such a hugely significant decision be made before we all understand how it fits into a national or regional plan and the achievement of a sustainable economy and environment?

Once Terminal 5 is approved, the pressure in future to use it to full capacity by building a third runway may follow as night follows day. I should like the Minister to give a pledge that a decision on Terminal 5 must be delayed until such plans are in place and until proper studies have been undertaken to determine the real effect of Terminal 5 on health through asthma stress, sleep disturbance and pollution, including noise pollution.

It is putting the cart before the horse for the Government only to promise an airport strategy once the T5 recommendation is known. The fact is that Heathrow has already reached its environmental limit with 50 million passengers and four terminals. The capacity at Terminal 5 would be an additional 30 million passengers per year—a 60 per cent. increase. And yet that airport is in the suburbs of London, within the M.25 area. In contrast, Charles de Gaulle in Paris is limited to 55 million passengers and Schiphol outside Amsterdam is limited to 40 million passengers. The noise, air pollution and traffic congestion generated by Heathrow have long exceeded the levels which the 1 million people affected by it are prepared to tolerate. Air pollution already breaches government targets.

Local people acknowledge that Heathrow as it is today makes an economic contribution to their area, as it does to the whole London economy, providing jobs and attracting business investment. But the key is to have a sense of proportion and to know when enough is enough. Once it starts to turn from a positive force into an intolerable blot on the quality of life of 1 million people, it is time to pause.

Why should the wishes of two large companies—BAA and BA—just because they have enormous financial and lobbying clout, and even friends in high places, override the democratically expressed wish of the local community? After all, 13 local authorities of all political colours are opposed to the expansion. That degree of cohesion would not exist unless all those authorities genuinely represented the clearly expressed wish of the community. Is democracy to be beaten by corporate power?

Let us not forget the financial facts of this David and Goliath battle. BAA has been allowed by its regulator—the Civil Aviation Authority which reports to the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions—to recover its £60 million costs of the Terminal 5 inquiry by charging airlines higher landing fees which are passed on to individual airline passengers. Meanwhile, the cash-strapped local authorities have to use council tax money raised from individual residents to present their case, even though it is with the democratically expressed support of those residents. Is money to be allowed to outgun democracy?

I cannot rehearse here in detail all the strong environmental and health arguments against Terminal 5. They include traffic fumes and congestion and of course focus particularly on aircraft noise, including night flights. There is a 24-hour noise climate around Heathrow. That needs to be restricted by the banning of night flights.

But a factor which goes beyond the local environmental impact is the question of safety. The skies over south-east England are the busiest in Europe and the air traffic control system is known to be at breaking point. Near misses are reported regularly. There was a record 15 in the first six months of 1998 alone. If even more flights were allowed into Heathrow, that could be extremely dangerous indeed with increased risk of mid-air collisions over a densely populated area.

I spoke earlier about the need for democracy to influence decisions such as those relating to Terminal 5. Clearly London's airports would need to continue to be included in a national transport policy and airports strategy. But the Greater London Authority also needs to have strong consultative links into the process, a part of its forthcoming strategic planning and transport responsibilities. The GLA will need to have a regional transport plan for which it is answerable to London voters. One of the factors at which it would look would be the need for balanced east-west development in London. Another would be the public transport links for passengers. I suggest that a Greater London Authority would seek to do better than the Heathrow Express which, good as it is, is "price controlled"—that is, quite expensive—to prevent overcrowding. The only alternative is the slow and very overcrowded Piccadilly Line.

A third factor which the GLA would wish to take into account would be the opportunity for rail travel to, for example, Paris and Brussels with a rail terminal at Heathrow.

The fact is that residents and local authorities around Heathrow feel betrayed and angry. Twenty years ago, the inspector, Mr. Justice Glidewell, in recommending the go-ahead for Terminal 4 said that it should be the last major expansion at the airport. The then government imposed a flight limit of 275,000 flights per year. Last year, that number was 440,000, an increase of two-thirds over 20 years. The local community is subjected now to pressure for massive expansion bigger than all the existing four terminals put together.

If trust is to be restored, a better way must be found to plan airports. Elements of that better way include a partnership between national and regional government with balanced planning to prevent over-congestion in London and the south-east; the promotion of rail travel alternatives particularly to cities on the Continent; and consideration should be given to the deregulation of landing charges to allow regional airports to compete. Until at least all that happens, Terminal 5 must not get the go-ahead.

6.28 p.m.

Lord Northbourne

My Lords, I offer a crumb of comfort to the noble Baroness because I shall not take up all my time. I rise to speak about Manston Airport, which is about eight or nine miles from my home, and the problems there which are causing enormous concern to the people of Thanet.

Manston is designated at present as a government aerodrome with a military air traffic control unit. At present, it is not a licensed aerodrome. However, a sale is under way by the Ministry of Defence to Wiggins which is due to be completed in March or April of this year.

The plan is that the airport will be operated by Thomson, which I believe is an extremely reputable airport operator. A management plan is in the process of being produced—indeed, it should already have been produced but has not been—and an aerodrome licence will be required from the CAA. The licence will be concerned with safety factors—safety standards are set by national legislation—but it will not cover noise or pollution. Who, then, will be able to control environmental factors, specifically noise and pollution? That is of enormous concern to local people.

The east-west flight path of the aerodrome goes straight over the ancient borough of Ramsgate. The difficulty is that the Thanet District Council, rightly or wrongly (some say wrongly) issued an "existing use" certificate for the operation of Manston as a civil airport without attaching any conditions. The council now says that it has no further powers to control the operation of the airport. Indeed, Wiggins claims that the council has no further powers to control noise or pollution or to control flight times or flight patterns, and that there is an established use for 55,000 movements in and out of the airport each year.

Historically, the vast majority of those 55,000 movements were movements of Tiger Moths or today's equivalent—single-engine training aircraft—because there is a flying school there, movements of gliders and, more recently, a few substantial aircraft which came in on charter flights and with freight but in limited numbers. Wiggins is now claiming that, because a glider came in last year, it has a right to bring in a jumbo jet; indeed, 55,000 jumbo jets.

Wiggins publicly advertised that the airport is to be open 24 hours a day. It is therefore not surprising that local residents are extremely concerned, particularly in relation to noise and pollution. The local people are perfectly reasonable. They agree that a properly controlled airport at Manston would be a godsend for Thanet, particularly if it dealt largely with freight. That might bring in industry, and there is a serious unemployment problem in the area. But, as with all airports, environmental factors must be controlled. However, there seems to be nobody to control them except, possibly, the Secretary of State—to which I shall turn in a moment.

Control can be effected by governing the numbers of landings and take-offs, the times of day when they take place—most major airports have a bar on landing or taking-off, except in emergencies, between midnight and 6 a.m.—and the type of aircraft. Older aircraft make more noise unless they are fitted with a "hush kit". Those will have to be supplied by the airport; the operators will not install them because they are more expensive. Apparently, one old Russian aircraft which currently lands in Manchester is known throughout Kent because it makes such an enormous amount of noise.

The Government have an obligation to establish that methods of control will be implemented. I conclude by suggesting, first, that the Ministry of Defence behaved irresponsibly in considering only the maximisation of the value of the land it is selling and not paying the slightest attention to either environmental factors or any kind of good neighbour policy. Secondly, perhaps the Minister can say whether the Thanet District Council now has or could have powers to impose any kind of restrictions? In particular, can it link restrictions of the kind I described to the granting of permissions; for example, for a new control tower which is needed or new hangars?

Finally, can the Minister indicate whether, if no other controls are available, the Secretary of State will step in and make an order under Section 5 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982?

6.34 p.m.

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I too am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, not only for his powerful speech, but also for the thoughtful way in which he ranged across the United Kingdom and not simply in his own county of Suffolk.

We hear a great deal from government about integrated transport policies, national airport strategies, environmental issues—for example, noise and air pollution, congestion on the roads and in the air, environmental planning policies, economic development and environmental impact issues. Yet many policies remain to be published and government policies across Whitehall are creating rather than lessening tensions.

The specific point I want to address is co-ordination between government departments, in particular the Ministry of Defence and the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. Increasingly, throughout the United Kingdom, capital assets are being realised by the Ministry of Defence. That is even more critical since the Strategic Defence Review. The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, ranged across the country and perhaps I too may be allowed to be parochial. I live in East Anglia and in my area the Royal Air Force Alconbury, which has already been mentioned in the debate, is actively under consideration for development. The Royal Air Force Wyton was recently declared a possible area for development. And, disturbingly, only yesterday I received from the Ministry of Defence in reply to a Written Question as to whether there were plans to relocate RAF logistics headquarters from its present site at RAF Brampton the answer that the MoD is currently looking at possible locations for its headquarters.

Those are three major Royal Air Force establishments within two or three miles of each other; two have runway facilities and the other is a logistics base. These issues are causing enormous problems locally. Again, as has been said in this debate, they are tearing apart local communities. There are tensions between the DETR—for example, about its airport strategic policy, which we have yet to see; environmental quality, about which we are continually reminded; housing needs (there is a great demand for more housing); and economic development. The MoD land agents are deeply involved with the detail of many of these projects but are not forthcoming in telling local people what is going on. It was only when I asked the question about Royal Air Force Brampton that I elicited the information that it is actively being considered for relocation.

There is tension also between the Civil Aviation Authority, whose licensing procedures act independently, the planning system, which is underpinned by guidelines which we know are being reconsidered, and the MoD, which wants the best possible return for its capital assets. The way in which it realises those assets is often in conflict with what is being said, often to the point of pontification, by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. Then we have the Treasury, which has always pocketed the proceeds. That means that there is often no direct benefit to local communities and the infrastructure needed to support many of the projects is not forthcoming.

In East Anglia, if all government land and buildings were released and developed, the character of the eastern region and certainly the quality of life would change dramatically. If the Ministry of Defence proceeds are returned to the Treasury, as is the usual case, and the infrastructure is not provided to support large-scale development, the results may be extremely damaging.

There is a mismatch between many of the policies coming out of government or, worse, an absence of policy altogether in areas such as national guidelines, local planning policies, infrastructure needs, airports policy, capital receipts and their use. And the Ministry of Defence's policies versus those of the DETR is an issue that needs to be addressed. It would be helpful to know from the Minister how those two departments are talking to each other about the impact of one department's realising assets on the other, which is charged with concern for the quality for the environment.

In answer to the question posed in the Motion, I do not believe that current planning procedures respecting proposals for new commercial airports, or any other large scale developments, are adequate to take account of environmental issues. Today I have spoken to three planning officers and they say that they are in considerable difficulties about advising their local people what to do. My noble friend Lord Marlesford made the point that many local councils throughout the land feel threatened when they are told that if they do not vote in a particular way they may find themselves financially disadvantaged at a later date when funds could be sequestered should they be deemed to have voted against the project.

In less formal language, the plea that I wish to make and the point that I wish to address is for joined-up government in this area.

6.40 p.m.

Lord Mountevans

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for giving us the opportunity to discuss new commercial airports, their environmental implications, planning, and local issues.

Too often we hear of industries merging, of plants closing and of the laying-off of staff. However, I cannot recall an incidence of that happening in terms of airports. Quite the reverse. Affluence and deregulation have done well by our airlines and their customers. In consequence, they and the airports have done well. Perhaps I may bracket both as the "aviation industry", as I did last July, and suggest that it is an outstandingly successful industry.

In airport terms, that success is across the board, be it the privately-owned heavyweights in BAA, other private operations such as the National Bus-owned Hurn airport at Bournemouth, or our municipal airports. In the context of the latter, I welcome the Government's relaxation of public sector borrowing controls in respect of soundly financed local authority projects. The success of Birmingham, Manchester and Newcastle must benefit the community, the shipper and the traveller.

Where should we aim to go from here? What steps can we take to build on success? I believe that we should look at the airlines, be they scheduled or the new generation low cost or chartered airlines. With practically no subsidy for their operations, they identify demand and provide service on a commercial basis. I believe that a national airports policy would anticipate their requirements and thus customer wishes.

But there is an environmental price to pay. No one has mentioned Kyoto yet. It deserves an airing. We cannot overlook it. I sleep within 15 yards of the Bakerloo line and under a Heathrow approach, neither of which bother me much, but I appreciate that others have a much rougher time. Nonetheless, I believe that we must choose between more airports, which I am against, and greater utilisation of existing facilities, which I believe will find much sympathy among speakers in your Lordships' House.

I come down on the side of the latter. A number of airfields are potential airports. Those of the MoD have been mentioned and I believe that British Aerospace has at least half a dozen that could be developed from test airfields into commercial airports, but not yet. I would leave them unconverted; I would leave them in their present situation pro tem. I hope that a national policy will embrace them only at the far end of the 30-year view that is taken in the White Paper. Maybe that is a little too long.

Having argued for the best use of what we have, I accept that increased demand leads to what we do not have. I hope that we will encourage existing success by overhauling the planning regime—I believe that that is essential—not only to address the problems that other noble Lords have spoken about, but also to address the problems of exploiting what we already have. I hope that existing success will be encouraged.

I shall not rehearse all that was said on 21st January during the Question tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, about Terminal 5, but I welcomed the trend in the Government's answers that day. Having taken the Kings Cross and other railway Bills on the Floor of this House, I believe that it is essential that the Government overhaul the planning regime, especially in respect of additional facilities rather than in respect of new airports.

I would also suggest that new infrastructure should not be looked at in purely airport terms. Access is an issue that must be addressed at all times—access for users and workers. We must not forget that much of the traffic at Heathrow is not as a result of the customers but the people who keep the airlines and the airport going.

The Heathrow Express, Manchester Airport's new station, the forthcoming Luton Airport station and the Tyne and Wear Metro's airport extension are all welcome developments. Would that the Heathrow Express served Hayes and Harlington, thus opening up access from Wales and the West of England and taking local traffic off the roads. Would that Stansted had an approach from the east, from East Anglia which might help to alleviate the needs of the Bentwaters development or anything similar. Would that Heathrow had a southern access from, say, Feltham. That was first mooted in the early 1960s and was then costed at £6 million, which is peanuts.

We cannot afford to follow the Scandinavian example of building new airports on greenfield sites, as has happened in Sweden and Norway, or on reclaimed land as in Copenhagen. Nor am I convinced, as some noble Lords have suggested, that we can follow the German plan of eliminating domestic flights in favour of surface transport. However, we can make the best use of what we have by simplifying the planning regime and by enhancing local and national access to airports by means of public transport. Those are two themes set out in the White Paper and they are objectives for the commission for integrated transport to pursue?

6.46 p.m.

Baroness Hamwee

My Lords, I join with others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, who I think may know the answer to his Question. There is a tinge of "Have you stopped beating your wife?" in the Question. "Is the Government satisfied that procedures take account of policy?". What policy?

One need only recall—to take one airport—what the inspector said at the time of the T4 inquiry, to which my noble friend, Baroness Ludford referred. At that time the Government accepted in 1979 that the proposed fifth terminal at Heathrow should not go ahead. Recalling those statements one understands well the public's scepticism about the procedure and the value of undertakings given as part of them.

As always, I have to declare an interest in Heathrow as a west London resident. I am well aware that arguing a particular local case does not aid the debate.

As noble Lords have said, the transport White Paper promises an airports' policy looking 30 years ahead. When will the 30 years start? Not only will we have to wait for the inspector's report on T5, but also for the Secretary of State's decision—in other words perhaps at least three years. I hope that the Minister can explain whether emerging proposals for airports, both relating to Heathrow and otherwise, can or should be put on hold. I include in the list Northolt Airport, to which the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, referred, for which one option is as a feeder for Heathrow.

I fully support the Motion that airports and air transport policy should be integrated with other areas of transport policy and wider policies. That is a commonsense view and it is a view held by the public. I believe that the public's expectations and demands are increasing, particularly with regard to sustainability and environmental protection. One of the most serious aspects of the matter is the public's view of the difficulty of individuals making a difference, not just when dealing with a particular matter, a particular application, but also the process of creating the plan, the framework, in the first place. The concern to which noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, referred attaches to the application made by an organisation in the public sector, lack of transparency in those processes and the obligation on them to realise the best price. I support what the noble Baroness said on that. On this occasion she must be glad not to be in government in order to be able to say that.

It is a good idea in theory to have a plan-led system, but that requires a plan to be in place. One of the difficulties of the application for Alconbury, to which reference has been made, seems to be that the issue was not, as I understand it, considered within the Huntingdon local plan, so there was no proper analysis at the plan-making stage. In other words, it is not plan-led; it is developer-led, so it is difficult to set it in the context of, for instance, transport links, and particularly the now very full A.14. and still less to respond to it being a site which must be an obvious candidate for mixed development, including perhaps fulfilling some need for household growth.

Reference has been made to flying rights at Alconbury. Can the Minister confirm whether flying there will require a further application, as the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, suggested? An application such as Alconbury may be the biggest decision in any district councillor's career and unless there is a strategy in place we may be expecting decisions from people whom we have not adequately equipped to deal with them.

Integration with other policy areas is a need writ large over Heathrow. The inquiry there is taking years and I cannot possibly cover the issues in the seven minutes allowed to speakers tonight. However, perhaps I may touch on just a few. I refer first to the place of private funding. The Heathrow Express, so funded, disgorges passengers into the difficulties of Paddington without CrossRail and is to control its demand by pricing. There is also the role of the airport as a shopping centre—a big attribute of T5.

I turn next to noise and night flights. The White Paper recognises that the aviation industry imposes severe environmental costs which it should meet, but the Government do not seem to have struck the same balance in the current consultation paper on night flights. Dangerously, they do not seem to be taking the public with them in the exercise of consultation. There is a big credibility gap between research and the disturbance actually suffered. People know when their sleep is disturbed. They know that the effect of the number of movements as well as the amount of noise is relevant. The "them and us" reading is compounded by such things as redefining what is meant by "night" in order to make it shorter. Other airports have banned night flights without alarmist claims about huge amounts of business being lost or, like Schiphol, they give a weighting to night flights so that in their annual noise budget they count for more.

I appreciate that the Minister cannot comment on current applications or consultation, but I hope that he can help the House on one general matter. I refer to the role of the Secretary of State, a matter on which I have written to him. The word on the street is that the current Secretary of State considers that decisions should, as often as possible, be left to local planning authorities and that he is resisting using Article 14 directions and calling in applications. I have a lot of sympathy with that although there are situations when intervention is appropriate. Has there been any change of policy or approach? If so, that should be known.

As has been said, the Government boast of their joined-up approach. I hope that they will soon join up the strands of their airports policy. A different department, MAFF, used to be reputed to defend agriculture with a disregard for public health, but now we are to have the food standards agency. I hope that the DETR will show that it is not an uncritical defender of the aviation industry, but also a defender of people's quality of life. I hope that we shall soon have passed the point when we hear, "Let us have an airports policy, but not yet".

6.53 p.m.

Lord Dixon-Smith

My Lords, I have vivid boyhood memories—I think it was in 1942—of the arrival, first, of clearing equipment and then of construction equipment on five separate sites, all within close proximity to my home. Wartime airfields were constructed on a five-mile triangulation across the whole of the eastern counties wherever the terrain was in any way suitable. We should all be grateful to those who served over the years in the interests of the defence of this nation, first as a matter of survival and latterly as a matter of serious defence. I should welcome an assurance from the Minister that there are no possible residual defence considerations left which could justify continuing the maintenance of those airfields.

Almost all of those wartime airfields are long gone; most are almost completely removed. Those that have remained in use latterly have had very little impact on, or need for, the infrastructure. They were largely manned by Americans and everything was moved in and out by air. But a change of use could bring a dramatic change.

In his Unstarred Question, the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, asks really about the validity of the planning process. Long experience of that process leads me to say—I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me for saying this—that one's satisfaction with the process is directly proportional to one's degree of agreement with its conclusions. There is simply no getting away from that. Planning is an extremely subjective matter. However, it is reasonable to suggest that in this situation, if it were not for the existence of the former wartime airfields, any planning application on any of those sites, either for airfield use or for residential use, would almost certainly be instantly rejected. I suggest that that is not perhaps an unreasonable starting point for consideration of this matter. Of course, such robust action would immediately lead to appeal—or possibly would have lead to a call-in by the Secretary of State because there would have been national policy implications. The Secretary of State wishes at present, quite properly, to get a high degree of local decision-making. But where is the national policy to guide those who are responsible for taking such decisions?

The Minister's predecessor said on 6th July 1998, at col. 956 of the Official Report: I hope that we can set a framework in the White Paper which will be published later this month on integrated transport policy". The White Paper, published only a few days later, states: We will prepare a U.K. Airports policy looking some 30 years ahead… We will consult widely and will take account of the inspector's Report on the Heathrow Terminal 5 inquiry". We have heard from many noble Lords tonight that that inquiry is continuing. I understand that the inspector will probably need two years to summarise the inquiry. Subsequently, the Minster will probably take another year to make up his mind on it. I do not want to go into the merits of that inquiry.

On the same day, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, also said, at col. 957: our plans for regional planning guidance will ensure that in future a regional transport plan is included in regional planning guidance". Can the Minister tell us where that regional planning guidance development has got to? It appears that the local authorities concerned with the applications have still not heard of it.

The planning process does not stop. It is already running. In both Suffolk and Cambridgeshire, structure and district plans are moving forward, driven by an assumption that the former military airfields are Brownfield sites, to be developed with the encouragement of the Secretary of State at the DETR. Is that a correct assumption? If it is not a correct assumption, where do we go? Moreover, if it is a correct assumption, has it been made to the exclusion of all other policy interests?

These matters will be decided long before there is a national policy from the Government. Hence the policy, when it comes, will have to be made to fit the past rather than guide the future unless the Government take some action now. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for tabling this Question. It has revealed what appears to be a vacuum in the Government's thought on this matter as well as a lack of willingness to take action. That seems to be becoming a common feature as this Parliament develops.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Lord Whitty)

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for initiating this debate and to all noble Lords who have taken part. Indeed, they have shown a great deal of expertise in the field. I regret that part of my reply may appear unsatisfactory to some noble Lords, and I might as well make that confession at the beginning. That is partly because, in many of these areas, the quasi-judicial role of the Secretary of State means that the only line that I can possibly take is to say that, "I cannot possibly comment". However, I shall try as far as possible to pick up the points that have been made, but I am afraid that in relation to Terminal 5, and the individual planning situations, there is a role at the end of the process for the Secretary of State which I have to protect as I am his representative in this House.

The White Paper sets out some key general principles on airports policy, relating to integration with environmental policies, with regional development and with surface transport. It announced that we wished to develop an airports policy which would look 30 years ahead.

We are currently considering the precise scope and timing of that policy statement and will announce our conclusions in due course. But until the new national airports policy is in place, existing airports policies remain which we inherited largely from the previous government. They will remain valid and continue to do so until such time as they are changed or discontinued. In the meantime, development proposals involving civil airports will be considered in the first instance by local planning authorities, or, where appropriate, by planning inspectors and the Secretary of State. That will be in the light of existing airports and planning policies, including regional planning guidance to which reference has been made.

Preparing the new airports policy and following the principles set out in the transport White Paper will take time. It would not be possible to do this without taking account of the inspector's report on the Heathrow Terminal 5 inquiry. Noble Lords have quite correctly pointed out that there is an indication that the report may take two years to complete. In the meantime, we are still progressing with the existing airports policy.

I accept that there are problems with the situation, but for any development of airports policy it must be clear that an assessment of the traffic movements of the south-east is central and that the future or otherwise of Terminal 5 is central to the future allocation of such movements. I give way to the noble Lord.

Lord Dixon-Smith

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but I did say that I did not wish to discuss the question of Terminal 5. However, I had always understood that, if there was justification for it, it would have nothing to do with the number of air transport movements; indeed, it would have everything to do with the increase in the size of aircraft.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, that is partly true. Obviously, changes in the size of aircraft would alter the situation that the inspector is considering. However, the results of that assessment must have profound implications for the siting and development of other airports within the south-east area. Indeed, the south-east area accounts for a large proportion of total air movements and, therefore, total airports development in the country as a whole.

Noble Lords will recognise that the inspector's report will therefore form an essential input to the development of a new airports policy. I believe that a number of speakers recognised that the process is unsatisfactory. We are considering modernising the planning procedures, especially for major national infrastructure. However, we are stuck with a position in relation to Terminal 5 where the airport has to follow current planning arrangements. We have to wait the outcome of that inquiry.

I move on to the actual and potential use of former MoD airfields. The Government consider that the local planning process, together with the extant planning and airports policy, provide an adequate framework for the consideration of planning applications for new commercial airports, whether or not they are on old MoD sites. From the planning point of view, a material change of use from a former military airport to that of civil airfield would normally require a planning application to the local planning authority under Section 54A of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. Such planning applications must be determined in accordance with the development plan, unless material considerations indicate otherwise. Account can also be taken of emerging development plans which are going through the statutory process.

PPG 13 advises that airport development is promoted by developers through the normal planning process. It recognises that airport development can bring economic benefits, but may also give rise to environmental and other concerns. The PPG advises that regional airports offer the opportunity to fly without the need for long surface journeys. It also advises that existing sites, including redundant military airfields and airfields, with established uses, will often present the best opportunities for providing acceptable facilities.

That is the existing position. In addition, we have a situation where the MoD is attempting to dispose of substantial parts of its land, as the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn pointed out. The Defence Estate exists solely to provide operational bases for our Armed Forces. It is Ministry of Defence and Government policy that the Defence Estate should not be any larger than that which is absolutely necessary to meet the operational needs of the Armed Forces. For that reason, early disposal of surplus property was identified as a priority within the recent Strategic Defence Review and within the CSR. A target of £700 million was set for receipts on Ministry of Defence land over the next four years.

It is MoD's usual policy to dispose of the freehold of surplus land on the open market by competition, with the benefit of planning permission. This is in accordance with guidelines issued by the Treasury, which have been extant for some time. However, a range of other methods may be used if professional advice indicates that such alternatives would produce a better value.

At the same time, negotiations with local planning authorities are normally undertaken by the MoD before a property is offered for sale and in the course of that sale. Indeed, it is crucial to establishing the development potential of all sites before they are offered for sale that an understanding with the local authority is established. In the current plan-led development environment, wherever possible MoD land is allocated in local and structure plans so as to optimise the planning potential and hence, from the MoD's point of view, the receipts from disposals.

Perhaps I may comment as far as I can on the individual sites which have been mentioned during the course of the debate. I shall begin with RAF Bentwaters, which is an area that I used to know well. When the American Air Force was in that area, and in various places around there, it was not just the "call of the curlew", as indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, which broke the silence. It is clear that Bentwaters in particular is located in an area of outstanding natural beauty. On the other hand, it is also within a rural development area and the closure of that base did have a significant impact on the local economy. The local planning authority is keen to find a sustainable solution.

I should add that it would normally be inconsistent with the aims of designation as AONBs to permit the siting of major industrial or commercial development in such areas. Although it is appropriate for planning authorities to have regard to the economic and social well-being of those areas, only proven national interests and lack of alternative sites can normally justify an exception. Local planning authorities must take that into account in preparing their development plans.

I cannot comment in detail on the assertions of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, relating to contacts between council officers and potential developers. However, I understand that the planning application currently before Suffolk Coastal District Council for the change of use of Bentwaters essentially covers the former operational part of the airfield, and that the developers propose to convert existing buildings and to modify existing infrastructure rather than undertake any large scale new build. The application has been accompanied by an environmental statement. The council has informed the Government Office for the Eastern Region that the application could be referred to the Government Office under the terms of the Town and Country Planning Directions Act 1992. I understand that Suffolk Coastal District Council has requested that predictions of noise levels likely to occur above Aldeburgh Maltings will be taken into account. The applicants suggest that they will be prepared to enter an agreement with the council and with Snape Maltings to avoid certain kinds of operational activity when recording and other musical events are taking place.

As regards the suggestion by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, that the silence of the Government Office has been taken by the district council as indicating approval of the Bentwaters planning brief, that is not the case. As a matter of practice we do not comment on the content of statements placed before the local planning inspector. It is for the inspector to consider all the information before making his recommendations in a report to the district council. Therefore, if that has been asserted I wish to make it clear that that is not the case. That is where we stand in relation to Bentwaters.

As regards RAF Alconbury, that is a slightly different situation. The current proposals are different from those proposed for Bentwaters because the original application which included proposals for air freight has been withdrawn. If those proposals were to be reinstated—I believe the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about this—a further application would be required. It is true that previously the draft regional strategy for East Anglia identified Alconbury as a possible site for the development of a regional base. The position on Alconbury at the moment, however, is that Huntingdon District Council is considering only a freight and surface transport base and not an airfield.

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I hope the Minister can be more helpful on that point. My understanding is that the MoD is using the local planning system almost out of a sense of courtesy, and that there is not a requirement to do that because at Alconbury there is an existing use. I believe that the MoD should be required to submit at some later date an application for air freight activities. Is what has happened just a courtesy or a promise on the part of the developer; or is it genuinely a requirement under the law?

Baroness Hamwee

My Lords, I hope I may add a further point. I may be asking the same question slightly differently. Are military air movements transferable into the commercial sector?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, they are not covered by the same planning permissions. There is not an existing planning authority permission for military movements. Therefore, one cannot transfer one to the other in that sense. In any case there are no military movements from Alconbury at the moment. I hope I have answered the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, as I understand it the original proposition included provision for air freight. That was withdrawn. The current application does not include air freight. If it were given the go-ahead, it would require a new application if air freight were to be reinstated. We are not at that point. As far as I understand the position, Huntingdon District Council has not received any application relating to air freight. It would require a new application, were that to be the case.

With regard to RAF Manston, the position there is different again in that civil air transport has existed at Manston since 1965 and both the Isle of Thanet and Kent planning authorities are in favour of that development. We are not dealing with a single situation. The position is different in all those three sites, and I suspect that it is different in regard to the other sites too.

A number of noble Lords have referred to intervention by the Secretary of State and indeed have called for intervention by the Secretary of State. I say in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that the policy has not changed in terms of intervention but we use the call-in power sparingly and exceptionally, as indeed did Secretaries of State under the previous government. The level of call-in is roughly the same as in the equivalent period before the election. But in this as in other areas we shall consider the role of the Secretary of State at the end of this process. The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, also asked whether the Secretary of State would intervene in relation to noise levels. That is a complex area and I should be grateful if the noble Lord will allow me to write to him on that point.

I have gone over my allotted time, even allowing for the time spent on interventions. We believe that the planning process is essentially sound in that it allows local authorities—the democracy that the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, asked for—to operate in the first instance. However, we believe that some substantial streamlining should be considered, particularly in relation to projects such as Terminal 5 which are of national infrastructure importance. As noble Lords will know, my honourable friend Dick Caborn is engaged in substantial consultation on the future of planning procedures in that and other areas.

As regards the specific Question that has been asked, we believe that the local planning process is a sensible one. We believe it could be improved. We have to wait for the outcome of the Terminal 5 inquiry before we can finalise any overall national airports policy. I trust noble Lords will understand that position. I trust noble Lords will also understand that as regards the specific questions that were raised, my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister will need to reserve his position in case he is called upon in a quasi-judicial role at the end of that process.

Lord Marlesford

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, are the Government prepared to contemplate the possibility that before state-owned land, particularly military land, is disposed of, the environmental implications of what it might be used for will be considered in a disposal so that there is not the risk that developers think they will get permission for something, which they subsequently do not obtain and that that thought adds to the pressure for inappropriate environmental development?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, I have tried to indicate that as regards the MoD's approach to disposals—I trust this would apply to other state-owned land—while considering maximising its return on the land it should also engage with the local authority to indicate what the planning requirements ought to be in relation to development on that land. That would obviously include environmental issues, noise issues and also economic development issues.

House adjourned at seventeen minutes past seven o'clock.