HL Deb 09 December 1999 vol 607 cc1385-8

3.18 p.m.

Lord Ezra

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether a scheme similar to the public bond issue for the New York subway should be introduced for the London Underground.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, I refer noble Lords to the excellent speech made by my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister in another place yesterday. Our private public partnership proposals will bring over £8 billion investment into the Tube system. That is much better value for money than public bonds. The PricewaterhouseCoopers paper, a copy of which was placed in the Library yesterday, shows how the PPP could save £4.5 billion compared with the issue of public bonds.

Lord Ezra

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for reminding us of the important speech made recently. None the less, is the Minister aware of the considerable success achieved by the New York subway. Since 1982, when the renovation plan was introduced, exactly £8 billion—the sum involved in our case—has been raised on the public bond market. The bulk of the lines and signalling has been improved, air-conditioned coaches have replaced former rolling stock, passenger mileage has increased by 40 per cent, and the reliability of the network h as doubled. In those circumstances, as it is important to consider all the alternatives for such an important venture, at this late stage will the Government look at the situation again, bearing in mind that raising bonds in such a way would certainly be cheaper than if the money were raised by the private sector.At the same time, the engineering work could be contracted out to the private sector.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, none or us would dispute that the New York system has improved significantly since the new system of financing has been in place. Nevertheless, that finance is guaranteed against future revenue in terms of both fares and tax subventions from public authorities. The benefit of the PPP is not only that we shall raise substantial funds of money, but also that we shall bring the application of the most up-to-date management techniques to the provision of the infrastructure for the London Underground. That analysis is underlined by the Pricewaterhouse report to which I referred, which shows a £4.5 billion advantage. I recognise that all forms of raising private sector money will be debated during the mayoral elections. However, I believe that the Pricewaterhouse report indicates that our scheme is probably the best way forward.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester

My Lords. does my noble friend agree that the PricewaterhouseCoopers report should be required reading for all candidates who aspire to be mayor of London, particularly in view of the misleading comments that some of them have made on the issue? This morning I had a brief opportunity to read the report. It is evident that the Jubilee Line extension would have cost £1.5 billion more had we gone down the bond route rather than down the public private partnership route. Will my noble friend comment on that?

Lord Whitty

Yes, my Lords. I trust that throughout the coming mayoral election, which is of such importance to the future of London, the facts will be addressed by all who aspire to be mayor and that this report will be part of their required reading. On the Jubilee Line extension, the benefit for any similar future undertaking would not only be the cost of borrowing, but also the fact that from the word go private sector management expertise could be brought to bear in a case that clearly was not well managed, such as the Jubilee Line extension.

Earl Russell

My Lords, I thank the Minister for placing the Pricewaterhouse report in the Library. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, on the importance of it being widely read. Is that report now not merely in the Library but also published? Has the Minister yet been quoted out of context enough times to realise how important that request is?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, I have spent most of my life being quoted out of context, like many other noble Lords. However, the report is published in the sense that it has been released to the press. Therefore, it probably meets the normal criteria and is available to Members of this House and another place.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, now that the proposals for Railtrack to take over the subsurface lines have been shelved in rather humiliating fashion by the Government, apparently because neither of the two mayoral candidates of the Labour Party could put their names to them, and on a day when the Evening Standard reports, Tube 'at death's door' as delays rise to record rate", can the Minister tell the House whether there is any chance that Londoners will see any improvement in the Tube before the next election or shall we go through the whole Parliament without seeing anything on the subject?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, I believe there are already benefits from the higher level of investment in which this Government have engaged for the London Underground than the last few years of the past regime. We have provided £800 billion. That will be built upon by the beginning of the private public partnership towards the end of this Parliament.

I want to reject the idea that the Railtrack proposition was rejected for the reasons suggested by the noble Lord. The fact is that the proposals from Railtrack at that point did not match up to what was required in terms of integration of the surface railway with the subsurface lines of the Underground. It was felt by all concerned—London Underground, Railtrack and the Government—that it was best to move to a PPP on the same basis as the rest of the London Underground.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire

My Lords, in the light of the conclusion reached by Pricewaterhouse that under all circumstances projects of this complexity would be 20 per cent cheaper if conducted by the private sector rather than by the public sector, does the Minister feel that the experience of the Channel Tunnel allows him to have that degree of confidence in such complex projects?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, every project needs to be assessed on its own terms. Clearly, there is benefit in applying private sector management in this context. That may not be the case in other contexts. The Channel Tunnel was different as the Government bear only a small proportion of the risk. However, I agree with Pricewaterhouse that the general approach we are taking will deliver efficiency as well as better finance.

Lord Elton

My Lords, as one who emerges, blinking, fairly often from the shabbier reaches of the Underground system into the magnificence which is now being revealed as the new Westminster station, will the Minister say whether priority can be given to providing greater comfort and capacity in the rolling stock and smoother track rather than glorifying the approaches to Westminster Palace?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, in relation to London Underground and other parts of the rail system, it is important that access to the railway is attractive, safe and efficient. So stations do matter. The rolling stock also matters. Part of the PPP will be the supply of the rolling stock that will be put on a more effective basis under this arrangement than has pertained in regard to rolling stock in the past. However, it is true that under the past regime, the orders for rolling stock in terms of surface railways and in terms of London Underground were seriously curtailed and we have to live with the consequences.

Lord Haskel

My Lords, is the Minister aware that recently I have visited most of the stations on the extension of the Jubilee Line? Will the Minister share with me the feeling that the architects and the builders ought to be congratulated, because truly the stations are quite magnificent?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, I was not totally aware of my noble friend's travelling propensities. I am glad that he has visited all the stations. I have visited two or three of them and I am deeply impressed. They give a whole new impression of the Underground to the travelling public. I believe that the Jubilee Line will be a great success.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

My Lords, in view—

Noble Lords

Reading!

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

My Lords, I am not reading. In view of the Government's ill-judged effort to give Railtrack a single contract for the subsurface lines, will the Minister assure the House that in the next round of contracts he will obey the EU contract rules on such major contracts?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, as I have indicated on previous occasions, the tenders for such contracts will comply with the EU rules. The EU rules provided for a single contractor in the case of Railtrack. However, the situation now is that all three contracts will be let on the same basis and in compliance with the rules.

Lord Ampthill

My Lords, does the Minister recollect that the Channel Tunnel was in no way a PPP project? It was entirely privately financed, contrary to the belief that is apparently rampant on the Liberal Democrat Benches.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, with regard to the initial stages the noble Lord is correct. However, it was necessary for my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister to step in during the early months of this Government to ensure that government backing was maintained for the project and therefore the Government were taking an element of the risk.

Lord Ampthill

My Lords, I was not talking of the line to St Pancras, but the Channel Tunnel itself.