HL Deb 28 April 1999 vol 600 cc306-8

2.51 p.m.

Lord Jenkins of Putney asked Her Majesty's Government:

What is their estimate of the number of casualties to non-combatants so far resulting from NATO air attacks on Yugoslavia.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Gilbert)

My Lords, recent reports have indicated that, very regrettably, some non-combatants may have been killed as a result of NATO air activity. I am unable to give a figure for the number of casualties.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, T am obliged to my noble friend for that Answer. However, if he consults the Geneva Conventions (Amendment) Act 1995 he will find that much of the bombing—not only the bombing of Belgrade television station—is illegal under an Act of this country. Under these circumstances does he recognise that an offence has been committed which carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment? Will he advise his senior colleagues in his department to consider their position carefully to see whether they should not bring this business to an end forthwith?

Lord Gilbert

My Lords, it may be helpful to your Lordships if I explain the selection of targets. Ultimate responsibility for the selection of targets attacked by British air assets lies, and will always lie, with the Secretary of State. He has delegated some of that discretion to junior commanders. In his absence I, too. am responsible for choosing targets, again subject to his authority. Every single target that has been attacked by British aircraft has been cleared with the British Attorney-General.

Lord Moyne

My Lords. do Her Majesty's Government accept that the chief result of the NATO bombing has been to accelerate the ethnic cleansing it was supposed to prevent?

Lord Gilbert

No, my Lords.

Lord Evans of Parkside

My Lords, does my noble friend acknowledge that for every regrettable Serbian casualty as a result of NATO bombing, hundreds and possibly thousands of Kosovar Albanians have been brutally murdered by Serbian paramilitaries and military?

Lord Gilbert

My Lords, further to my noble friend's extremely important point it might be of use if I were to point out that I do not think I have ever known a military campaign in which one side has been so fastidious about the use of weapons or its choice of targets. We have flown some 10,000 missions. There have unfortunately been two or three instances of the kind that have been mentioned. We have lost one plane and brought the pilot back. I think that is a quite remarkable tribute to the professionalism of all NATO forces.

Lord Monson

My Lords, given that much of the Serbian Orthodox hierarchy opposes Milosevic's policy in Kosovo, does the noble Lord agree that it was a great mistake, apart from other considerations, to bomb Serbia on the Orthodox Easter Sunday, particularly as the allies rightly took great care not to bomb Iraq during Ramadan?

Lord Gilbert

My Lords, we did bomb Iraq during Ramadan.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there have been about 200 casualties in Serbia and probably a good deal more elsewhere, particularly in Kosovo, as a result of this war? Does my noble friend also agree that nothing has been achieved of any use, either to the Kosovar people, nor indeed to the Serbian people, and that if this campaign continues in its present form all that will result will be more refugees and more casualties, both in Kosovo and in Serbia itself? Has not the time now come to reassess NATO's view of the situation, to negotiate and to reach a settlement which is acceptable to both sides?

Lord Gilbert

My Lords, of course my noble friend would not expect me to agree with the premise underlying his question. We are happy to bring the bombing to an end just as soon as Mr. Milosevic agrees to withdraw his troops who are harassing Kosovar civilians, and to the return of civilians under the protection of an international force which will be NATO led, and that there will be no harassment in the future. I should have thought that any civilised person on this planet would accept those objectives.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the NATO objective of removing the Serbian forces and allowing the Kosovar people to return to their homes must be achieved by next winter if appalling loss of life and suffering are to be avoided in the camps? Will the Minister give an assurance that any military forces which are necessary to achieve that objective will be deployed?

Lord Gilbert

My Lords, I am sure your Lordships would agree that the resolution of NATO—all 19 countries—to achieve these objectives is absolutely unanimous and the determination is total. I would be surprised indeed if I were standing at this Dispatch Box next winter discussing these matters.

Earl Attlee

My Lords, I join the Minister in congratulating our forces on minimising casualties while at the same time destroying Serb oil refinery and transport capacity. Is he confident that the right balance is being struck between minimising casualties on the one hand and shortening the conflict on the other?

Lord Gilbert

My Lords, you always pay a price if you fight a war to minimise the casualties on both sides. That is a price that we are prepared to pay.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that those who cast doubt on the rightness of carrying on are suggesting to Milosevic that there is a division in opinion which is likely to prolong the conflict?

Lord Gilbert

My Lords, that is the price one always pays in a free society.