Financial Services and Markets (Hansard, 28 April 1999)

§ Baroness Jay of Paddington
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, in order for us to consider what has happened in the past few minutes, it would be appropriate for there to be a Motion before the House. I therefore beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure for 10 minutes. I have no intention of asking the House to consider that.
A very unusual procedure has just taken place. The House has voted on a purely procedural Motion. I understand from those who opposed the Motion that it was done because of the advice given a few moments ago by the noble Baroness the Leader of the House on the Private Notice Question. It must be right for there to be an opportunity to put this matter entirely straight, and for the noble Baroness to explain the position more fully.
The House will know that I have maintained on many occasions that on purely House matters I support the Leader of the House. That was one of the reasons why I did not intervene when she said what she did. However, given the generosity that the noble Baroness had shown in agreeing that the PNQ could take place, I wonder whether she might have been rather hasty in her judgment, considering the tremendous interest on all sides of the House in this issue.
There was a substantial feeling that the House had been misled and that the Minister, for wholly understandable reasons, could not himself be here. There is an election in a few days and the issue has become enormously politicised. One wonders whether the situation could have been better handled either through the usual channels or by the noble Baroness showing the generosity that she had displayed earlier. I move the Motion to give the noble Baroness an opportunity to explain to the House why she reached the decision that she did.

§ Baroness Jay of Paddington
My Lords, I am extremely surprised and disappointed by the observations of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition. As I understood the matter on which we voted, it was a procedural business Motion which had very little to do with the Private Notice Question, except as interpreted by several of his own Back-Benchers.
I have always understood that when the Leader of the House offers to the House advice that he or she is given on procedural matters the courtesies of the House are that the Leader of the Opposition supports the Leader of the House. I regret to say that during this Session there have been occasions when that has not occurred and the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and I have then engaged in private conversation and personal exchange of correspondence about situations that have arisen.
I am surprised that in this instance he should take the view that he has. The advice I was given was that the PNQ would follow the normal procedure for Oral Questions, not that for PNQs in another place repeated as Statements in this House. If this is a matter of dispute among noble Lords, obviously it is 316 a subject for the Procedure Committee. My advice to the House is that this kind of procedure should be immediately reported to, and discussed by, the Procedure Committee at an early opportunity. But I do not withdraw my disappointment at the position taken by the noble Lord on the matter.

§ Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I associate myself with the remarks of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde. The Leader of the House is quite right. Those of us who have had the honour and privilege of being Leader of your Lordships' House have always had the right to expect that the advice we give to your Lordships, with the assistance of the learned Clerks, on matters of procedure should be supported. That is the way in which noble Lords are able to proceed without the intervention of a Speaker as happens in another place.
However, it was clear to me as an observer that there was immense interest on all side of the House in the Private Notice Question tabled by my noble friend Lord Stanley. One wonders whether it might have been possible for the noble Baroness to suggest that the House could have stretched a point in order to accommodate that very obvious interest, noted by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde.
The noble Baroness will be aware, perhaps to a greater extent than anyone else in the Chamber, of the particularly sensitive period through which we are passing where nerves are perhaps nearer the surface than is usual in your Lordships' House. I respectfully suggest to the noble Baroness that it is at moments like these that a little elasticity is welcome. It may be sensible for the House to adjourn for 10 minutes to allow tempers to cool and for us then to proceed to the business of the House.

§ Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank
My Lords, we are in danger of making a meal of this on the eve of a number of very important debates. There may have been a misunderstanding. I do not detect one. I believe, however, that the Leader of the House has made a perfectly sensible and widely acceptable suggestion that the matter be sent at an early date to the Procedure Committee which will report back. If the House does not like the report of the Procedure Committee it will reject it. But that is the proper course that the House should take without further delay.

§ Lord Tebbit
My Lords, having been the instigator of this fracas—if I may call it that—it is eminently sensible that the rules of procedure should be reviewed as suggested by the noble Baroness. After all, the procedures are designed to serve the House; it is not the House that should serve its procedures. It is perhaps a pity that for want of a little judicial elasticity, which would have held up the business of the House for five minutes or so, we have now delayed business for a considerable time. I have no 317 wish to delay it any longer. The noble Baroness and others will be aware of the strength of feeling on the issue.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not intend to keep the debate going any longer. I believe that I have given the noble Baroness the opportunity to explain further what was on her mind. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Division No.1
CONTENTS
Addington, L.	Barnett, L.
Ahmed, L.	Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Alli. L.	Blease, L.
Amos, B.	Borrie. L.
Annan, L.	Brooke of Alverthorpe, L
Avebury, L.	Brookman, L.
Bach, L.	Bruce of Donington, L.

Burlison, L.	Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Burns, L.	Longford, E.
Carrick, E.	Mclntosh of Haringey, L
Carter, L. [Teller.]	[Teller.]
Clarke of Hampstead, L.	Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.	McNair, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.	Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B
David, B.	Milner of Leeds, L.
Davies of Coity, L.	Mishcon, L.
Dixon, L.	Molloy, L.
Donoughue, L.	Monkswell, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.	Montague of Oxford, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.	Morris of Castle Morris L.
Evans of Watford, L.	Morris of Manchester, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.	Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Gainsborough, E.	Northfield, L.
Gilbert, L.	Patel, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.	Porter of Luddenham, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.	Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.	Rea, L.
Grantchester, L.	Redesdale, L.
Grey, E.	Richard, L
Hampton, L.	Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Hardy of Wath. L.	Roll of Ipsden, L
Harris of Greenwich, L.	Sandberg, L
Harris of Haringey, L.	Sefton of Garston, L.
Hayman, B.	Shaughnessy, L
Hilton of Eggardon, B.	Shepherd, L.
Hives, L.	Simon, V.
Hollis of Heigham, B.	Stallard, L.
Hooson, L.	Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Hoyle, L.	Strabolgi, L.
Hughes, L.	Strafford, E.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.	Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Hylton, L.	Thomas of Gresford, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.	Thomas of Walliswood. B.
Ilchester, E.	Turner of Camden, B.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord	Wallace of Coslany, L.
Chancellor.]	Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Islwyn, L.	Warnock, B.
Janner of Braunstone, L.	Weatherill, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. [Lord Privy	Whaddon, L.
Seal.]	Whitty, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.	Wigoder, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.	Williams of Elvel. L.
Lockwood, B.	Winchilsea and Nottingham, E
	Winston, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Alton of Liverpool, L.	Monson, L.
Ashboumc, L.	Montrose, D.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.	Moyne, L.
Brookeborough, V.	Newall, L.
Chesham, L.	Northbourne, L.
Davidson, V.	Palmer, L.
Dundee, E.	Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.	Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Gisborough, L.	[Teller.]
Glentoran, L.	Rathcavan, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.	Ryder of Warsaw, B.
Holderness, L.	Saltoun of Abemethy, Ly.
Ironside, L.	Sharples, B.
Layton, L.	Skelmersdale, L.
Long, V.	Stanley of Alderley, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.	Tebbit, L. [Teller.]
Milverton, L.	Teynham, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.	Vinson, L.