Council of the Isles (Hansard, 15 April 1999)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey will be full members of the British-Irish Council.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I understand that they are not part of the United Kingdom, although 834 belonging to the Crown. I am not entirely sure what their status should be. Does the Minister recall his previous Answer to me on this subject? He said that after the Kilbrandon Report on the Constitution there remained, areas of uncertainty in the existing relationship [between these territories and the United Kingdom] which itself was complex "— [official Report, 22/3/99; col. WA131.], and to which the Kilbrandon Report did not provide an authoritative answer. Does the Minister recall that for Customs Union purposes the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are part of the European Union but Gibraltar is not, although for electoral purposes Gibraltar is part of the European Union but the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are not? Does he therefore accept that it might be useful for clarification purposes for the Government to consider commissioning a report on the United Kingdom's European territories on the lines of the recent useful report on the United Kingdom's non-European dependent territories?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I always remember my earlier Answers and look back on them with great pleasure. The formation of the British-Irish Council has nothing to do with the Kilbrandon Report. The British-Irish Council derives from Strand Three of the Belfast agreement, in which it was agreed that the British-Irish Council would comprise representatives of the British Government, the Irish Government, devolved institutions in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, when established, and, if appropriate, elsewhere in the United Kingdom, together with representatives of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey. This is a step forward and a change which I am sure the noble Lord's party welcomes as part of the continuing organic development of our constitutional arrangements.

§ Baroness Ludford
My Lords, the Minister said that there was provision that, if appropriate, the devolved regions of England would be represented in the council of the isles. Can he tell us what thought has been given to the form of that representation, perhaps starting with London when the greater London authority is established next year?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I spoke of devolved institutions, when established, and, if appropriate, elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I believe my answer is literally accurate because it derives entirely from my reading of the text of Strand Three of the agreement. If there are continuing developments, this is the kind of body which will itself, I hope, be subject to organic growth on the basis of consensus.

§ Lord Hardy of Wath
My Lords, what about the position of Sark and Alderney, or are their interests to be recognised and implemented by Guernsey and Jersey?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, they will certainly not be represented by Jersey; I think there would be civil war if they were. Sark and Alderney, as every schoolboy knows, are within the jurisdiction and bailiwick of Guernsey.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, can the Minister say whether, after 1st July when the Scottish 835 Executive is set up and is represented in the council of the isles, if that executive takes a different view on a reserved matter from the view taken by the Government of the United Kingdom, its representatives will be able to take part in discussions on that agenda item in the council of the isles?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, we believe that one should avoid being unduly prescriptive. If one looks at the text of Strand Three, one can see that it will be open to the British-Irish Council to agree common policies or common actions. Individual members, which would include the Parliament of Scotland at Edinburgh, may opt not to participate in such common policies and common actions. The answer to the noble Lord's question is to be found in the text of the agreement.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, that is all very fine, but some of us do not have before us the text of the agreement. That was why my noble friend asked the Minister to explain the matter. Can he have another shot?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I am certainly prepared to have another shot. I turn from paragraph 6 to paragraph 7 of Strand Three: The [British-Irish Council] normally will operate by consensus. In relation to decisions on common policies or common actions … it will operate by agreement of all members participating in such policies or actions". I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, agrees that nothing could be plainer.

Earl Attlee
My Lords, following the supplementary of my noble friend Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, how will members of the BIC be selected from the British devolved institutions?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, by the British devolved institutions.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Channel Islands are possessions of the Crown in its capacity as inheritor of the Duchy of Normandy and no other?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, yes.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, in furtherance of the organic constitutional development of which the Minister is so fond, does he believe that there is any case for adding Gibraltar to the council of the isles?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, there may be a case for it. However, as far as I am aware it does not fall within the Belfast agreement.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, the noble Lord has been kind enough to tell the House what the council of the isles can do. Can the noble Lord tell us what it does, if anything?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, it does not do anything at the moment because there have been no 836 elections of which I am aware to an assembly in Cardiff, a parliament in Scotland or an assembly in Northern Ireland. One awaits those elections. It has a substantial prospective agenda. For example, paragraph 5 of Strand Three indicates that, Suitable issues for early discussion … could include transport links, agricultural issues, environmental issues, cultural issues, health issues, education issues and"— I look particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire— approaches to EU issues".