Business of the House: Debate, 15th April (Hansard, 13 April 1999)

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I wonder whether the Chief Whip, as always, is trying to be helpful. The Motion that we are asked to approve asks that the Motion standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Williams of Mostyn be taken first after the Chairman of Committees' business next Thursday. Yet, when I look at the business for next Thursday, that is exactly what it is: the Motion in the name of my noble friend Lord Williams of Mostyn immediately follows the Motion of the Chairman of Committees. I wonder whether the Chief Whip can help us.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend. The purpose of the Motion is to arrange the order of business for Thursday to reflect the agreement of the usual channels that the Motion in the name of my noble friend Lord Williams of Mostyn should be taken before any affirmative instruments tabled for that day. Without this business Motion, the effect of standing orders of the House would be that the debate to be introduced by my noble friend Lord Williams of Mostyn would come on later in the day. That is not what is wanted.
Your Lordships will recall that Standing Order 38(4) provides that: On all sitting days except Wednesdays, notices and orders relating to Public Bills, Measures, Affirmative Instruments and reports from Select Committees of the House shall have precedence over other notices and orders save the foregoing". The effect of that provision is that on Thursday of this week the important Motion standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Williams of Mostyn, the Deputy Leader of the House, does not have precedence over affirmative orders. The Motion in the name of my noble friend is to take note of the report of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, a subject which was debated in another place before the Easter Recess. It has been agreed through the usual channels that it would be appropriate for this Motion to be the principal item of business on Thursday, in spite of the provisions of the standing order and the normal practice of the House. This arrangement has been agreed and is reflected in the text of the Order Paper for Thursday.
626 There are three affirmative orders on the Order Paper for Thursday, on traffic areas in Wales and on the Carriage by Air Acts. They will be moved by my noble friend Lady Farrington of Ribbleton. It has again been agreed through the usual channels that it would be appropriate for those three items of business to be taken after the debate on the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. All those expecting to take part in the debate are aware of this arrangement, which has the full support of the usual channels.
Your Lordships will also recall that Thursday's Order Paper contains an Unstarred Question in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ezra. This appears, in the normal way, as the last item of business on the day. Standing Order 38(8) provides that Unstarred Questions shall be taken last.
The purpose of today's business Motion, which I am moving on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, who is preparing for the important Statement on Kosovo this afternoon, is to allow the Motion in the name of my noble friend the Deputy Leader of the House, Lord Williams of Mostyn, to be taken as the principal business on Thursday. Although the Order Paper has already been printed in the order in which it is anticipated that the business will be taken if today's business Motion is agreed to, that Order Paper is, as always, provisional. Should your Lordships, uncharacteristically, object to today's Motion, the order of business for Thursday will be altered.
The Motion which I am moving on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House specifically provides for the business of the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees to be taken first on Thursday. This is important. The Motion which the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees intends to move on Thursday is to appoint my noble friend Lord Morris of Castle Morris as a member of the House of Lords' Offices Committee in place of Lord Dean of Beswick, who, sadly, died before the Easter Recess.
It is, as your Lordships will recall, a custom of the House that business in the name of the Chairman of Committees comes first, and it is particularly important that that custom is observed on this occasion. The business Motion which I move today therefore incorporates a specific exclusion to allow the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees to move his Motion on Thursday before we start the main business. I am sure that the whole House will miss the contributions made by Lord Dean of Beswick to the work of the Offices Committee. I am also sure that the House will benefit greatly from the wisdom and experience which my noble friend Lord Morris of Castle Morris will bring to the committee.
I hope that this explanation makes clear to noble Lords, and to my noble friend Lord Graham of Edmonton in particular—I am surprised that, as a former Chief Whip, he even asked the question—why this 627 business Motion is being moved today. I hope that the House will be able to agree to the Motion without further debate.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am grateful for the explanation given by the noble Lord the Government Chief Whip. I understand that the Government have a more significant problem, which is one of the reasons why the noble Lord led us through the explanation in response to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton; namely, that the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, who has been the subject of this small debate, has been delayed and is therefore unable to start the Second Reading of the Bill on which he is due to speak in a few minutes' time.
A Statement is due to be taken after the speech of my noble friend Lady Young. If the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, is likely to be delayed much longer, is there any possibility of taking the Statement earlier rather than later? That would allow the noble Lord, Lord Williams, to return from his luncheon engagement in a sedate fashion and would also allow us to get on to the important issue of Kosovo. We suggest, in a spirit of helpfulness and co-operation, that we should take that course rather than continue with this slight charade.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, I am amazed that the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition describes this as a charade. I thought that the whole House was absolutely fascinated by my explanation. I think that it could be known as the "M.4 explanation". My noble friend Lord Williams is delayed in a hold-up on the M.4. We have some other business to deal with. While that is being taken, I will see whether the Leader of the House can come to the Chamber so that we can perhaps move to the Statement earlier than intended.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, before we move on to other business, I listened, as I always do, with very close attention to what my noble friend the Chief Whip had to say on this Motion. I did not regard it as a charade, and I did my best to understand it, but I found it somewhat incomprehensible. I wonder whether, in all the circumstances, he would care to repeat it.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, I thought that my noble friend was going to say, "More, more". I do not know any more.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, in the circumstances, would it be either in order or welcome for me to follow the example of Winnie the Pooh and wish the noble Lord a very happy Thursday?

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, there have been occasions over the years when I have listened with great interest to the noble Earl's questions; we all benefit from sitting at his feet. When he asks that kind of question, I am always reminded of the Danish proverb which says that you have 628 to walk behind an ostrich for a very long time before you pick up the feather of a wild duck. I am told that it sounds much better in the original Danish.

§ Baroness Lockwood
My Lords, I understand that it is not just lunch which has delayed my noble friend. I wonder whether the Chief Whip could advise the House of the reason for the delay.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, I am afraid that there has been a serious hold-up on the M.4. My noble friend Lord Williams of Mostyn is returning from Windsor Castle and has been held up in that traffic jam. I suggest that we move on with the interim business before the Second Reading.