§ 3.30 p.m.
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, I am sure the House will be delighted to hear that it is expected that the new Session of Parliament will be opened by Her Majesty the Queen in person on Tuesday 24th November. I am not yet in a position to announce the intended date on which the House should meet to prorogue. However, I can say that, subject to the progress of business, it is expected that this will be in the course of the week beginning Monday 16th November. I have to tell noble Lords that the prorogation is likely to be in the latter part of that week.
Viscount CranborneMy Lords, I am sure the whole House will be extremely grateful to the Government Chief Whip for making the announcement as soon as he was able with his usual courtesy to the House.
Perhaps the noble Lord will take this opportunity to acknowledge that during the course of the past Session the House has sat for a longer period in one Session than any other period—I think that I am right in saying—in the records of your Lordships' House. I hope he will recognise that during the course of that Session this House has processed an extraordinary amount of important and epoch-making—but we hope not too damaging to the future of this country—business. We hope that he will also recognise that during the course of performing that task this House has performed also its historic task of examining large chunks of business which had not received even the most cursory examination in another place. That perhaps underlines the importance of a second Chamber.
§ Lord Rodgers of Quarry BankMy Lords, on behalf of these Benches I, too, am grateful for the indication of when the Queen's Speech will take place.
1565 Will the noble Lord the Chief Whip take this opportunity to comment on a matter which arose at Question Time? The noble Lord will remember that in reply to a supplementary question in which the noble Lord, Lord Gillmore, declared that he was a non-executive director of Vickers, the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, said that he was doubtful whether it was proper for such a question to be put. I understood that it was not required of noble Lords to state an interest at the time of asking questions. However, if, despite that non-requirement, a noble Lord chooses to do so, is it appropriate for the Government Front Bench then to say that it is an improper question? It is an important issue on which I think the whole House will want an answer.
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, I am extremely grateful to the two noble Lords. Perhaps I may answer the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition. It is true that this has been a long Session. As Chief Whip, I am extremely grateful for the patience that has been shown in all parts of the House in a Session which has been extremely heavy. An interesting point is that during this Session we shall have passed in excess of 50 Bills. That is almost exactly the same number as was passed in the 1979–80 Session, which is the equivalent 18-month Session after a period in opposition. To be fair, we have included in those 50 Bills three substantial Bills on devolution.
It has been a long Session. Your Lordships will have seen the statistic which has been quoted: that this has been the longest Session sitting of the House since the Long Parliament. I have done a little research on that. I can confirm that the number of Conservative Peers considerably exceeded the number of Labour Peers in that Parliament as well.
I think that I can promise noble Lords that the Session we shall start on 24th November will be no less exciting and demanding than the one we have had this year.
On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, the Companion is entirely clear. If there is an interest to be declared it should be done at an appropriate time. It is not always necessary to do so at Question Time. Perhaps the noble Lord who intervened felt that as the Question was directly about Vickers he should mention the matter. But the Companion is entirely clear on the attitude that your Lordships should take on that matter.
Lord RentonMy Lords, on that last point, does the noble Lord the Government Chief Whip recollect that there have been fairly frequent occasions over the years when trade union leaders who happen to be noble Lords have intervened on matters affecting their unions in circumstances not dissimilar to those which arose at Question Time today? If it is proper for a trade union leader to do so, surely it is equally proper for a director of the company concerned, having declared his interest, to do so.
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, perhaps the best thing I can do is to read what the Companion says. It states:
Lords who have a direct financial interest in a subject on which they speak should declare it, making clear that it is a financial interest. They should also declare any non-financial interest of which their audience should be aware in order to form a balanced judgment of their arguments".It also states:On certain occasions such as Starred Questions and the various stages of a Bill following Second Reading, it may be for the convenience of the House that Lords should not take up time by repeating declarations of interest but Lords should make a declaration whenever they are in doubt".
Viscount CranborneMy Lords, I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for prolonging the matter, but I believe that the House should be extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, for raising the matter immediately. The House should also be extremely grateful to the Government Chief Whip for reading out the relevant part of the Companion, which seems to me to be perfectly clear, as he intimated.
If the Government Chief Whip agrees with me that the Companion supports the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Gillmore, acted entirely within the spirit and letter of the instructions of the Companion, I hope that he will therefore acknowledge that the noble Lord, Lord Gillmore, acted entirely properly during the course of Question Time today.
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords attempt to act entirely properly during Question Time. However, the Companion also says that noble Lords should be "especially cautious" when they have a direct financial interest. They should be extremely careful in the way in which they handle it.
§ Lord Rodgers of Quarry BankMy Lords, I am sorry to pursue the matter further. The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, is very courteous in his treatment of the House, but those of us who were present heard plainly a reprimand from the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, which was inappropriate. I ask the Government Chief Whip, without making a further meal of it, to say that in this case an error was made. That could be an end of the matter.
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, I am not sure that it was an error. I am not of the intention of reprimanding any of my colleagues. I am sure that my noble friend was aware of what the Companion said and I think he treated the matter in the way that he thought was correct.
Viscount CranborneMy Lords, I am very sorry, because the Government Chief Whip is always extremely courteous and helpful to the House, and entirely unpartisan in the way that he treats us. I know that he is being unpartisan in this matter. However, there has clearly been an imputation about the propriety of the conduct of a Member of your Lordships' House—as it happens, a particularly well-respected and distinguished Member of your Lordships' House. I believe it would be appropriate—I am absolutely sure that no imputation 1567 was meant by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, that the noble Lord acted beyond the realms of propriety—that the matter should be made absolutely clear now.
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, in these circumstances it is always as well to check Hansard to see what was said. I am sure my noble friend had no intention of imputing any base motives to any noble Lord. He saw the situation. The Companion is entirely clear. He acted in the way he thought was right. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Gillmore, also thought that he was correct. I suggest we all read Hansard tomorrow and reflect on it.
§ Lord Phillips of SudburyMy Lords, is it not a fact that the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, refused to answer the question. Might he now answer the question posed by the noble Lord?
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, I know that the noble Lord is new to this House, but Question Time ended after 30 minutes.