HL Deb 21 October 1998 vol 593 cc1456-9

(".—(1) This section applies where excepted or reserved matters relating to Northern Ireland are to be discussed at a meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference.

(2) The First Minister and the deputy First Minister acting jointly shall ensure that there is such attendance at the meeting as appears to them to be required by the Belfast Agreement.

(3) In this section "attendance" means attendance by one or more Ministers.").

The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 113 deals with attendance by Northern Ireland Ministers at meetings of the British-Irish intergovernmental conference which is to be set up for the purpose of enabling the British and Irish Governments to co-operate on all matters of mutual interest, including non-devolved Northern Ireland affairs. This clause provides that when Northern Ireland matters are to be discussed at a meeting of the conference, the First and Deputy First Ministers shall ensure such attendance by Northern Ireland Ministers as is required by the agreement.

I should like to take a few moments to emphasise the significance of the clause. Previously, the British and Irish Governments came together in an Anglo-Irish intergovernmental conference to discuss a range of issues in relation to Northern Ireland. It was a cause of some frustration that there was no involvement of the elected representatives of Northern Ireland during those discussions. That is now being remedied in the new British-Irish intergovernmental conference.

Furthermore, the British-Irish intergovernmental conference will enable the two governments to work together on all matters of mutual interest. While Northern Ireland will be a key part of that agenda, it will be open to Ministers to discuss any issues of mutual concern.

Amendments Nos. 113A and 113B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cope, deal also with the attendance of Northern Ireland Ministers at meetings of the British-Irish intergovernmental conference. The former would amend the current provisions to ensure that at least two Ministers attend, thus allowing for cross-community involvement. As I said earlier, we are discussing that matter further in relation to representation at all of the new institutions. The latter amendment would delete any definition of "attendance" in this clause and in my view would make it unclear whether attendance was limited to Northern Ireland Ministers or whether it could go wider. I beg to move.

Lord Cope of Berkeley moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 113, Amendment No. 113A:

Line 6, after ("attendance") insert ("by at least two Ministers").

The noble Lord said: I was interested to hear the Minister say that he thought that if the wording were tidied up by leaving out subsection (3) and incorporating the point in subsection (2), it would somehow weaken the definition of "attendance". However, subsection (3) says that: 'Attendance' means attendance by one or more Ministers". It struck me first that we might include the phrase "one or more Ministers" after "attendance" in subsection (2). That would mean that with rather better English we should have achieved in one subsection what it has taken the draftsman two subsections to achieve. That is a purely drafting amendment of no great consequence except to improve the English, which we always seek to try to do.

A further thought that strikes me in order to ensure cross-border representation is that the provision should say—and could do so in either of the methods to which I have just referred—that two Ministers should normally be expected to attend so as to ensure cross-community representation. That is a separate point and the Minister has said that he will look at it.

A suggestion made to me is that the Belfast agreement, at paragraph 7 on page 15, more or less gives the First Minister and Deputy First Minister the right to attend. It states: Relevant executive members of the Northern Ireland Administration will be involved in meetings of the Conference, and in the reviews referred to in paragraph 9". That seems more or less to give them the right to attend. I am not quite sure that that is fully carried into the Bill by Amendment No. 113.

A different and wider point arises from what the Minister said. He used the expression "including non-devolved matters". As I understand it, the British-Irish intergovernmental conference will discuss only non-devolved matters. It will not discuss devolved matters. Strand 3 says about the British-Irish intergovernmental conference that it will, promote bilateral co-operation at all levels on all matters of mutual interest within the competence of both Governments". But of course the Government are devolving to Northern Ireland a raft of responsibilities. Paragraph 5 states that, there will be regular and frequent meetings of the Conference concerned with non-devolved Northern Ireland matters". The paragraph later refers to, cross-border co-operation on non-devolved issues". Paragraph 6 states: The conference also will address … areas of rights, justice, prisons and policing in Northern Ireland (unless and until responsibility is devolved to the Northern Ireland administration)". Once devolved, the British-Irish intergovernmental conference will cease to be involved in those matters, as the agreement stands.

Amendment No. 113 states: This section applies where excepted or reserved matters relating to Northern Ireland are to be discussed". That implies that devolved matters will be discussed sometimes but goes on to imply that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will not attend when devolved matters are discussed but will attend when non-devolved matters are being discussed. That is extremely odd. I believe that further reflection may be necessary in relation to these provisions.

Lord Molyneaux of Killead

I support the two amendments. I listened carefully to what the Minister said about the point made in lines 8 and 9. It seems to me that the argument is the other way around. I find it difficult to understand why it is necessary to have those two lines as a kind of interpretation post-script at the end of the proposed new clause. The provision would be strengthened if the words appeared in subsection (2), as suggested in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cope.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cope, that we need to think more carefully about devolved, reserved and non-transferred matters. Perhaps at a later stage we can address our minds to those issues.

Lord Dubs

I am grateful for the comments of both noble Lords. As regards subsection (3), I should like to consider the matter further in the light of those comments.

As to whether the British-Irish intergovernmental conference can discuss non-devolved matters, it will be able to discuss any areas of mutual interest, including subjects not related to Northern Ireland. That goes rather wider than the noble Lord understood. The conference will not discuss devolved matters in relation to Northern Ireland. The reason that that terminology is used is because we wish to allow for the possibility of discussing any areas of mutual interest, including subjects not specifically relating to Northern Ireland.

Lord Molyneaux of Killead

For the avoidance of doubt, would there not be a case for the Northern Ireland Ministers to be present even as observers? There are many examples of misunderstanding. We can rely on the news industry to make sure that friction is created if Ministers are not there at first hand to hear what is happening.

Lord Dubs

It depends on how many Minsters there would have to be at such meetings. We are going rather wider than is appropriate even on such a detailed Bill as this one. Ministers who have a key need to be there will be there. The Assembly and the Executive would have to decide the basis of attendance through the First Minister and Deputy First Minister.

Lord Cope of Berkeley

This debate is founded on Amendment No. 113A, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment No. 113A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 113, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 113B, as an amendment to Amendment No. 113, not moved.]

On Question, Amendment No. 113 agreed to.

Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 114:

After Clause 43, insert the following new clause—