Prison: Sentencing Alternatives (Hansard, 19 October 1998)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, the Government welcome the report of the Home Affairs Committee's inquiry into alternatives to prison sentences. We believe that the courts should have available to them an effective range of sentencing options. The committee's report is a valuable contribution towards realising that. The Home Secretary and I are considering all the recommendations carefully. When we have done so we shall publish our response before the end of this year. Many of the recommendations endorse action which the Government are already taking.

§ The Earl of Longford
My Lords, as I shall raise these issues in a wider context tomorrow night I shall not bother the Minister for much longer today. However, on the face of it, his reply could be encouraging or it could mean nothing at all. I look forward to the debate tomorrow.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, it is definitely not nothing at all. It is encouraging.

§ Lord Dholakia
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the prison population, which was 40,000 in 1993, has now increased to over 65,000? In the same period the offending rate, or the rate at which offenders have been sentenced to imprisonment, has risen from about 44 per cent. to 60 per cent. in the Crown Court and from about 5 per cent. to 10 per cent. in magistrates' courts. Does the Minister consider that a non-custodial alternative should play an important part and that the courts should re-examine their sentencing guidelines?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, is quite right. There has been an unprecedented rise in the prison population over the past five years. However, I am happy to tell your Lordships that for the first time since I have been answering these Questions the rate of increase has recently slowed down. It peaked at 66,517 at the end of July. However, last 1173 Friday it was 65,980. I endorse entirely what the noble Lord says. We have to be extremely scrupulous in looking at alternatives to imprisonment. I believe that that is an important theme which underlies the Crime and Disorder Act.

§ Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate
My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that in many cases prison is a perfectly proper sentence, certainly for serious crimes, and that it plays an important part as a deterrent in any crime prevention strategy? Does he also agree that this House should not give the impression that we care more for the welfare of the criminal than for that of the victim?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I absolutely agree. I believe that the protection of the public is at the heart of any government's duty. The important question is to ensure that we have effective public protection. The noble Lord's point about victims is another important theme in the Crime and Disorder Act where reparation orders are available. We should bear in mind also that the ultimate protection for the public is a reduction in crime. That depends on public confidence in the range of sentencing alternatives available and those which are used.

§ Lord Tebbit
My Lords, can the Minister say whether the rate of crime has gone down or up during the period that the prison population has gone up?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, the rate of crime as such varies. Some crimes have increased and some have decreased. It is difficult to find a causal connection between imprisonment and the rate at which a particular crime is committed. Different factors affect different crimes. I can see the semaphore from my noble friend Lord Tebbit—

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I refer to my noble friend Lord Tebbit. I repeat that some crimes have increased and some have decreased.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, will the Government pay particular attention to the committee's recommendation that Ministers should give more publicity to the work of the Probation Service and the other activities touched on in this admirable report?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, it is indeed an admirable report, as I sought to say earlier. I believe the noble Lord refers to Recommendation 29 which states that we ought to inform the public fully what alternative remedies are available. I have started to do that by attending probation officers' conferences and by talking to probation officers. I have endeavoured to persuade the media to tell the full story of what is available for public protection and the reduction of crime.

§ Baroness Anelay of St. Johns
My Lords, the Minister referred to public confidence. Given the fact 1174 that the report refers to evidence which shows that even under the more effective community programmes re-offending rates are still unacceptably high, what steps are the Government taking to reassure the public that it is safe to increase the use of such programmes for a wider group of offenders?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, again, one comes back to the philosophy behind the Crime and Disorder Act. One has to recognise that we must stop young offenders much earlier than they have been stopped in the past. We wish to have programmes which intervene at a very early age. I believe that everyone who has ever answered questions on this subject from this Dispatch Box—and I see the noble Baroness there—will recognise that early intervention is the key to many of these problems. There is a job of public confidence to be undertaken and it is a duty of the Government to discharge that.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, have the Government taken any steps towards implementing the recommendation of the Chief Inspector of Prisons that Immigration Act detainees should be held in special detention centres and not in Prison Service establishments? Has the Minister noted that, according to figures he recently gave in answer to a Written Question, there are almost 500 Immigration Act detainees in our prisons? As one possible way of reducing those numbers, will the Minister consider the use of electronic tagging for Immigration Act detainees rather than detention?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, the noble Lord makes two interesting points. The second is certainly a matter to be considered. We must bear in mind that applicants who are detained are extremely difficult to control and do not have roots in this country. The matter is not as simple as dealing with questions of bail for those who are resident in this country.
With regard to the first part of the question, I believe the noble Lord will remember that as soon as Sir David Ramsbotham's report was published it was accepted by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that while punishment is obviously essential in many circumstances, what matters most in the end is the rehabilitation of the criminal and that therefore what happens in prison is central to our considerations? Does he not agree that there is too much indication that very often prison simply produces hardened criminals?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, of course, but one cannot necessarily simply have blunt propositions put as alternatives. Some people will have to be detained in prison for long periods of time because it is necessary to protect the public. However, it must be borne in mind that 99.9 per cent. of criminals will one day be released and it is expensive folly and a waste of both human and financial resources not to give them the opportunity of a better and more constructive life when they come out of prison. That is an important aspect of public protection.