The Police and Race Relations (Hansard, 5 October 1998)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, there are frequent and regular discussions. The Home Secretary has given his full support to the findings and recommendations of the thematic inspection report on police race and community relations published last October. That report found that much had been done to provide a fair, equitable and high quality service to all citizens. But progress was patchy and the report set out a blueprint for action within forces. We have established a close working relationship between the Home Office and the Black Police Associations, who are represented on the working group set up to look at recruitment, retention and development of ethnic minority officers within the police service.

§ Lord McNally
My Lords, does the Minister agree that at this moment nothing would be served by the resignation of Sir Paul Condon and that what is required from the Commissioner of Police for the remaining term of his office is leadership to eradicate racism in the police, which goes beyond a few bad apples? Further, does the Minister agree that one concrete measure of progress would be to improve the recruitment of black 165 police above the appalling level of 2 per cent.? We cannot police our ethnic communities with white police forces; we must bring them within our system of justice.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, the position of the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis is a matter for him, as he has made plain on a number of occasions. It would be folly for any step to be taken before the report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence is published within the next few months. As to recruitment, I absolutely agree with the noble Lord. I stressed in my original response that retention and development were important, not simply recruitment at the bottom levels. There must be fair and equal opportunity of promotion and career prospects.

§ Lord Janner of Braunstone
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it was both courageous and proper for Sir Paul Condon to acknowledge the existence of racism in the police and to say that he would deal with it? Was it not also right for him to set up a new task force to deal with racial and violent crime? Surely, it is not enough for all British citizens to be equal in the eyes of the law. They must be, and must feel themselves to be, equal in the enforcement of the law, which they are not, as today's advertisement by the Commission for Racial Equality rightly points out. Will my noble friend indicate what the Government propose to do in the light of the revelations from the Lawrence inquiry?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, no conclusions have yet emerged from the Lawrence inquiry. Evidence has been submitted and submissions made. If one sets up an inquiry chaired by a High Court judge one should wait for the full conclusions before coming to a determination. However, the Government have made plain on every relevant occasion that they detest and despise racism from whatever quarter and whatever its manifestation. We are a country ruled by laws and everyone within our society is entitled to equal opportunity and protection.

§ Baroness Park of Monmouth
My Lords, I believe that it has been said in the past—I do not know with what truth—that recruitment to the police force from the black population is very much hindered by the belief that their communities will distrust those who join the police and that their lives will be made extremely difficult if it is felt that they are going over to the enemy. Has that attitude changed? It is very difficult for the police to recruit if that culture persists.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, in any minority community there is bound to be a feeling such as that described by the noble Baroness. We must examine carefully whether or not there is racism in a particular organisation. The Home Secretary set up the public inquiry—the families rightly support it—at public expense knowing that the conclusions would be robust and that they would have to be acted upon. It is only by paying careful attention to, and acting upon, what Sir William Macpherson says that we shall deal with the underlying themes which the noble Baroness 166 rightly identified. But this is not limited to one section of the community; it is common among many minorities.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, do the Government suggest that our ethnic communities cannot be policed by white policemen? If so, is this not a counsel of despair and does it not itself contain certain racist implications?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I have never heard it suggested by any sensible person that that proposition holds good. In my view, the community is properly served by the police service and other public services by a fair representation by all ethnic communities. I do not suggest—nor have I heard it suggested—that an Asian or black policeman cannot carry out his duty nobly, honourably and scrupulously towards his white fellow citizens.

§ Lord Dholakia
My Lords, does the Minister agree that one does not have to wait for the results of the Macpherson inquiry to worry about the recruitment of black people to the British police? They have been here for the past 50 years and all they have to show for it is less than 2 per cent. of police coming from ethnic minorities and one person of superintendent rank. Will it be another 50 years before we see a black chief constable in this country? It is not simply a question of recruiting black people but retention. But that is only possible if one tackles the culture of racism that exists in many parts of the British police.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I did not suggest that one should wait for the results of the inquiry. I indicated earlier in answer to the noble Lord who asked the Question originally that we already have a working group set up on which the Black Police Associations are represented. Retention and promotion are very important. The fundamental problem is that few people will admit what is generally known to be the case, namely, that there is a good deal of racism in our society as there is a good deal of disadvantage, for instance, to women. The sooner we recognise all these problems within our own house the better it will be for us all.