Ordnance Survey Maps (Hansard, 18 November 1998)

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, Ordnance Survey is obliged by an 1841 Act of Parliament to ascertain certain boundaries. The current administrative areas depicted on Ordnance Survey maps are the modern equivalent of those described in the 1841 Act.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply. I am disappointed that she is answering the Question today on behalf of the Government rather than one of the other Front Bench Peers because I want to dwell on the situation in Lancashire. Is my noble friend aware that we in Lancashire are proud of our county and our county boundaries whether we come from Manchester, Liverpool, Blackpool, Blackburn or the administrative county? We are proud also that we are a duchy. Our magistrates are not appointed by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor but by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Will my noble friend do all in her 1267 power to try to persuade the Ordnance Survey to re-institute the county boundaries as many of us are proud of that area?

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, as a happy resident of Lancashire and as the mother of a proud Lancastrian, I assure my noble friend that I am fully aware of the pride that those of us who are Lancastrians by birth or choice have in the most beautiful county in England.

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
I stress that that is not a government policy statement. I understand that magistrate appointments are based on petty sessional divisions determined by the Lord Chancellor's Department. At the moment the Ordnance Survey does not have a record of the Duchy of Lancaster boundary on maps. However, I assure my noble friend that when people reach agreement about which historic boundary of Lancashire they wish to see on an historic Lancashire map, that can be produced, although it would be a special production and expensive.

§ Lord McNally
My Lords, I declare an interest as my full geographic title is McNally of Blackpool. Is the Minister aware that these scandalous maps exclude Blackpool as well as Blackburn from the county of Lancashire? What is it about new Labour that, first of all, you steal our red rose, then you tell Blackpool it is not posh enough for your party conference, and now you seem to imply that residents of the Paris of the north cannot have the toast, "Her Majesty the Queen, Duke of Lancaster"?

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I am utterly convinced that no one in the Labour Party stole the red rose. We allow people to share it. The noble Lord could apply for membership. I, too, believe it is extremely important to have recognised that those who live in Blackpool and particularly those who were born in Blackpool see themselves as Lancastrians, as do noble Lords who were born in Southport when Southport was in Lancashire.
It is also true that many people born in areas that once were in Lancashire—as long as 100 years ago—still see themselves as Lancastrians. I am sure that no one wishes to deprive the people of Blackpool of their right to be Lancastrians, but, administratively, they are part of the new county of Blackpool.

Viscount Addison
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that on Ordnance Survey maps many rights of way and "BOATs"—that is, byways open to all traffic—are not appearing to the extent that they did in the past? Some of those rights of way are no longer on the newer "Pathfinder" maps. Can anything be done to ensure that in future rights of way in particular are more clearly marked and transferred from the original maps to the new print?

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I should be delighted to take up any particular examples 1268 or concerns that the noble Viscount has. Occasionally, particular rights of way and routes fall into disuse. I well remember my husband trying to navigate us on an old "white" road through the Welsh mountains. To our horror, we discovered that he was intending to drive us into a dam and a reservoir that had been created since the map was published. Some rights of way fall into disuse, but I shall certainly look into this point for the noble Viscount.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the European Commission has already drawn up, and has had ready for the past two years, a completely new map of the European Union, divided into the regional and local administrative areas that it requires, and that in due time, unless somebody somewhere, from here or from another place, intervenes, all counties will disappear under the new European regime?

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I have never seen the sort of map to which my noble friend Lord Bruce of Donington refers. As a former member of the Committee of the Regions, I know that within the European Union the various levels of local government are depicted on the maps that it uses for reference to functions and areas within. I also understand that the needs of particular regional areas are considered by the European Union when formulating its policies. I stress to my noble friend that the needs of those of us who live in the north west, whether in Blackpool, Preston or Manchester, may vary from the needs of those in the south west or the south east. On occasion, it is useful to have those different regional areas.

§ Lord Dixon-Smith
My Lords, perhaps an Essex nationalist may intervene in this parochial debate. Can the Minister explain why, if it was outwith the original terms of reference of the Ordnance Survey, it was deemed necessary for such a long time to include county boundaries? As they were included for such a long time, what has changed now to make it necessary to exclude them?

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, my recollection is that the government of the party of the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, radically changed the boundaries. The Royal County of Berkshire, for example, no longer exists for administrative purposes. That is why the noble Lords, Lord Taylor of Blackburn and Lord McNally, among others, have raised concerns. However, the administrative boundaries were changed because of what happened. Far be it from me, on this day of all others, to argue in a hostile way with Essex man.

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, although I come from Barnet and definitely not from Lancashire, I am delighted to see that the noble Baroness is answering this Question. Perhaps I may press her on what she said about the "modern equivalents" of the county boundaries on the Ordnance Survey maps. Will 1269 there be regional boundaries? In the Regional Development Agencies Bill, the Government used the areas of the regional offices as the administrative areas, but if we have regional assemblies, will we have "modern equivalents" (to use her term) of those boundaries, or will there be proper boundary reviews of regions so that we have proper regional boundaries?

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, is fully aware of the fact that the Government have made it quite clear that it is not our intention to impose the existing regional boundaries for the voluntary regional assemblies of local authorities as the model for the regions in the future. To answer the first question from the noble Baroness, the changes are not being made arbitrarily, but to depict the actual tiers of local government and the boundaries which cover them as that is of value to people.