HL Deb 13 May 1998 vol 589 cc1076-8

2.53 p.m.

Lord Randall of St. Budeaux

asked Her Majesty's Government:

What estimates they have made of the extent of social exclusion arising in contemporary information-based society.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, the Prime Minister has set a target that by 2002 a quarter of citizens' dealings with Government will be able to be done electronically. It is an important aspect of our fight against social exclusion. This will require major changes not only to the way government operates, but to the ability of citizens to receive and understand electronic communications.

Lord Randall of St. Budeaux

My Lords, is the Minister aware that a proportion of British society is socially excluded due to limited access to information technology? Is my noble friend also aware that no one has yet attempted to measure the extent and nature of that social exclusion? That includes the two social exclusion units in the London School of Economics and the Cabinet Office.

What steps will the Government take to reduce the gap between the information "haves" and "have-nots"?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, the measurement of social exclusion arising from lack of understanding of information technology is clearly a complex question. It is not that we have not tried to measure it; we have. We know that 18 per cent. of adults, for example, say that they feel excluded from information technology. The difficulty is to relate that to other ways in which they may be socially excluded.

However, as did the previous government, the Government have a number of programmes to try to deal with the problem. The IT For All programme set up by the previous government has been increasing the number of public access points for information technology. The Information Age project launched by the Prime Minister only recently is directed at understanding information technology, in particular in schools and the workplace. We are not letting the grass grow under our feet.

Viscount Chelmsford

My Lords, is the Minister aware that recently I invited 580 MPs to attend a theatre nearby for a morning presentation on how electronic commerce can be used to reduce social exclusion? Among the audience on the day was the noble Lord, Lord Randall, and the DTI was well represented. But of those 580 MPs—they were circulated twice-22 accepted and only four attended. Clearly I failed to achieve the objective: to try to reduce social exclusion—an issue in which we thought all MPs, not least those of the government party, were interested.

Can the Government give some advice on how we shall get MPs interested? Unless the leaders of the nation are interested, we shall not achieve much in terms of reducing social exclusion.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I have heard favourable reports of the noble Viscount's seminar. I had not heard, and I am sorry to hear, that the acceptance from Members of Parliament was so poor. I understand that Mrs. Barbara Roche, the Minister for Small Firms, was present. I hope that that will give the noble Viscount the encouragement that Government are indeed concerned about the problems to which he refers.

Lord Ewing of Kirkford

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am socially excluded from a whole host of issues in this country? But that has nothing to do with my lack of understanding of technology. It is because of my rebellious nature.

Will the Minister accept that we should congratulate my noble friend Lord Randall on tabling the most obscure Question I have ever seen on any Order Paper in either House of Parliament? How on earth did the ministerial team decide which Front-Bencher should answer it?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, my definition of "social exclusion" does not include the voluntary social exclusion to which my noble friend Lord Ewing has condemned himself. But we had no difficulty in understanding the Question and its importance, nor in recognising that it should be answered on behalf of the Cabinet Office, which is responsible for information technology and communication between government and the citizen.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

My Lords, does the Minister regret that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is not one of the "have-nots" so far as concerns the IT society?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who is not in his place, has been a distinguished propagator of information technology in this House for more years than I have been here, and I pay tribute to him for it.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

My Lords, as a governor of schools, and associated with education at local level, my impression is that the new information technology greatly reduces exclusion. Almost every child can use it. Does the Minister accept that it is we who are excluded because we are too old to have been taught when we were at school?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, those of us who are wise in these matters learn from our children. I thought that that was common. One starts by learning how to use the video and goes on to learn how to use the PC.

I take the serious point behind the noble Baroness's remarks. It is an essential part of our policy to extend information technology in schools, and indeed in libraries, where we are spending £70 million on digitising materials, and in training librarians in information technology.

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe

My Lords, will the Minister tell the House how many teachers fall into that deprived category; and how many targets have been set to take them out of it?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, the New Opportunities Fund, when the National Lottery Bill is passed, will have a major programme for training teachers in information technology. We do not yet know how many are lacking in that training, but the programme is universal. Those who are lacking and wish to be trained will be trained under this programme.