HL Deb 11 March 1998 vol 587 cc216-8

3.17 p.m.

The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard)

My Lords, as many of your Lordships will no doubt be aware, a Motion was moved in the House last night that the Clerk reads Standing Order No. 30 on asperity of speech. This standing order dates from 1626. It has been read only three times this century. I believe that on one of those occasions the Peer moving the Motion came to the House the day after and apologised for having moved it.

The proceedings last night were thus somewhat unusual, to say the least. I hope that the House will feel that it deserves some comment from me today. I have this morning read Hansard to see what was said last night on the debate that preceded the Motion. I do not myself see that anything personal or offensive was said that would justify invoking that standing order. Strong things are said in Parliament and even in your Lordships' House. I am reliably informed that the grandfather of the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition once referred to a Labour Peer as being, "redolent of oleaginous hypocrisy". However, he went on to say, "without any desire to be personally offensive to the noble Lord for whom I have such high respect".

The House will be aware that many of those who voted last night, including myself, had not heard what had been said and therefore, by definition, could not have taken offence. But having said all that, the House clearly decided last night that something untoward had occurred and that our procedures should be invoked.

In the light of those events, however, it seems to me that there is an argument that this procedure might not be the most efficacious way of dealing with the cases it is intended to address; namely, unparliamentary language and behaviour. The House might like to be made aware, therefore, that I am actively considering whether the Procedure Committee should be asked to look at Standing Order No. 30. The fact that it has been used so rarely tends to support the point of view that it is perhaps worth looking at. I hope the House will agree that discussions through the usual channels to this effect will now be appropriate.

Viscount Cranborne

My Lords, it is an agreeable and an extremely sensible convention in your Lordships' House that the House as a whole should follow the advice of the Leader of the House in matters which affect not legitimate political debate, but the management of your Lordships' affairs and the keeping of order and, as and when necessary, the lowering of the political temperature so that this House can proceed with its business. I am sure that noble Lords on all sides of the House would expect me this afternoon to endorse that convention and from that point of view—as always, I hope—I shall certainly advise the House to follow the advice which the Lord Privy Seal has just given us.

I hope, too, that the House will feel that it is the business of both Front Benches at all times to be mindful that one of the reasons that this House works so well is, paradoxically, that there is no Speaker as in the other place. That means that it is very much the responsibility of both Front Benches to ensure that the House is reminded that it proceeds by agreement and that due decorum should be observed.

It is for that reason that I was so particularly admiring of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, last night. Like the noble Lord the Leader of the House, I was not in the Chamber so I have had to rely entirely on the invariably accurate reflections in Hansard. Although that deprived me of the opportunity to drink in the atmosphere that prevailed at the time, it was clear that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, felt that he was right to stand his ground. In view of what I have just said, if I may say so, I thought that it was typical of the noble Lord that he was able to hold his nose and say what he did in pursuance of ensuring that the House could get on with its business with the minimum of difficulty. I am sure that the whole House appreciated that. That is why I am sure that the noble Lord will want to persist in the view expressed then that there was nothing personal in what he said.

As your Lordships will have observed, one of the agreeable features of your Lordships' House is that although we may disagree politically, it is extremely gratifying how many of us get on personally in private. We do not cast aspersions on the personal motives of any Member of your Lordships' House. If I may say so, I thought the tenor of the noble Lord's remarks entirely sensible and appropriate. I hope that he will not take this as a patronising remark, but I have genuine admiration for the way in which he handled the matter.

I strongly advise the House to follow the advice of the noble Lord the Leader of the House. If the noble Lord wishes to consider referring Standing Order No. 30 to the Select Committee on Procedure, I am sure that that will be raised through the usual channels when it will receive a sympathetic hearing from this side.

Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank

My Lords, I hope that the Lord Privy Seal and the House will not make too much of last night's events. My own experience of them was that they were very good tempered. The fact that it was only the third time this century that that particular procedure had been invoked might be a very good argument for not bothering to take matters further.

I fully understand how my noble friend Lord Russell felt offended by the attribution of hypocrisy to Members of your Lordships' House. I take the view that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who is very skilful in these matters, might have issued a few emollient words and put the matter to rest. That did not happen. I do not think that we need to be too fussed about it and I do not think that it reflects on your Lordships' House, but if the Lord Privy Seal wants to refer the matter to the Select Committee on Procedure, we on these Benches would certainly not oppose that.