THE WELSH COMMISSIONER

HL Deb 15 June 1998 vol 590 cc1318-73

Appointment

1.—(1) The Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall be appointed by Her Majesty.

(2) Subject to sub-paragraphs (3) and (4), the Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall hold office until the end of the year of service in which he attains the age of 65.

(3) Her Majesty may relieve the Health Service Commissioner for Wales of office before the end of that year of service—

1. (a) at his request, or
2. (b) on Her Majesty being satisfied that he is incapable for medical reasons of performing the duties of his office and of requesting to be relieved of it.

(4) Her Majesty may remove the Health Service Commissioner for Wales from office before the end of the year of service in which he attains the age of 65 if, on the ground of misbehaviour, the Secretary of State recommends that Her Majesty should do so; but the Secretary of State shall not so recommend without consulting the Assembly.

Status

2.—(1) The Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall be regarded as holding office under Her Majesty and as exercising his functions on behalf of the Crown.

(2) Service as the Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall not be service in Her Majesty's Home Civil Service but he shall be taken to be a Crown servant for the purposes of the Official Secrets Act 1989.

Appointment of acting Commissioner

3.—(1) Where the office of Health Service Commissioner for Wales becomes vacant, Her Majesty may, at any time during the period of twelve months beginning with the date on which the vacancy arose, appoint a person to act as that Commissioner.

(2) Subject to sub-paragraphs (3) to (5), an acting Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall hold office in accordance with the terms of his appointment.

(3) An acting Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall not hold office after—

1. (a) the appointment of a new Health Service Commissioner for Wales, or
2. (b) the end of the period of twelve months beginning with the date on which the vacancy arose,

whichever occurs first.

(4) Her Majesty may at any time relieve an acting Health Service Commissioner for Wales of office—

1. (a) at his request, or
2. (b) on Her Majesty being satisfied that he is incapable for medical reasons of performing the duties of his office and of requesting to be relieved of it.

(5) Her Majesty may remove an acting Health Service Commissioner for Wales from office at any time if, on the ground of misbehaviour, the Secretary of State recommends that Her Majesty should do so; but the Secretary of State shall not so recommend without consulting the Assembly.

(6) A person appointed under this paragraph shall, while he holds office, be regarded for all purposes (except those of paragraph 1 and this paragraph) as the Health Service Commissioner for Wales.

Ineligibility of certain persons for appointment

4.—(1) A person who is a member of a body mentioned in section 2(1) or (2) shall not be appointed as Health Service Commissioner for Wales; and a person so appointed shall not, during his appointment, become a member of such a body.

(2) A person mentioned in section 2A(1) or (2) shall not be appointed as Health Service Commissioner for Wales; and a person so appointed shall not, during his appointment, become a person so mentioned.

Remuneration

5.—(1) The Assembly shall—

1. (a) pay the Health Service Commissioner for Wales such salary and any such allowances, and
2. (b) make any such payments towards the provision of superannuation benefits for or in respect of him,

as may be provided for by or under the terms of his appointment.

(2) But where the Health Service Commissioner for Wales is also—

1. (a) Parliamentary Commissioner, or
2. (b) Welsh Administration Ombudsman,

he shall not be entitled to any salary as Health Service Commissioner for Wales.

(3) Where the Health Service Commissioner for Wales also holds either or both of the other offices of Health Service Commissioner, he shall be entitled only to the salary pertaining to such one of the offices of Health Service Commissioner as he selects.

(4) The Assembly shall pay to or in respect of a person who has ceased to hold office as Health Service Commissioner for Wales such amounts (if any) by way of—

1. (a) pension or gratuities, or
2. (b) provision for those benefits,

as may have been provided for by or under the terms of his appointment.

(5) In Schedule 1 to the Superannuation Act 1972 (offices etc. to which section 1 of that Act applies), in the list of "Offices" insert—

"Health Service Commissioner for Wales."

(6) The Assembly shall pay to the Minister for the Civil Service, at such times as he may direct, such sums as he may determine in respect of any increase attributable to sub-paragraph (5) in the sums payable out of money provided by Parliament under the Superannuation Act 1972.

Staff and advisers

6.—(1) The Health Service Commissioner for Wales may appoint such staff as he considers necessary for assisting him in the exercise of his functions.

(2) The Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall include among his staff such persons having a command of the Welsh language as he considers are needed to enable him to investigate complaints in Welsh.

(3) Service as a member of the staff of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall be service in Her Majesty's Home Civil Service.

(4) The Assembly shall pay to the Minister for the Civil Service, at such times as he may direct, such sums as he may determine in respect of any increase attributable to sub-paragraph (3) in the sums payable out of money provided by Parliament under the Superannuation Act 1972.

(5) Any function of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales may be exercised by—

1. (a) a member of his staff,
2. (b) a member of the staff of the Welsh Administration Ombudsman, or
3. (c) an officer of the Parliamentary Commissioner or of another Health Service Commissioner,

if authorised by the Health Service Commissioner for Wales for that purpose; and references in any enactment to a member of the staff of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales include any person exercising any function of his by virtue of paragraph (b) or (c).

(6) To assist him in the exercise of his functions the Health Service Commissioner for Wales may obtain advice from any person who, in his opinion, is qualified to give it.

(7) The Health Service Commissioner for Wales may pay to any person from whom he obtains advice under sub-paragraph (6) any such fees or allowances as he may determine.

(8) No arrangements shall be made—

1. (a) for any of the functions of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales or of the Assembly to be exercised by the other or by a member of the other's staff, or
2. (b) for the provision of any administrative, professional or technical services by the Health Service Commissioner for Wales or the Assembly for the other.

Reports

7.—(1) The Health Service Commissioner for Wales—

1. (a) shall annually prepare and lay before the Assembly a general report on the performance of his functions, and
2. (b) may from time to time prepare and lay before the Assembly such other reports with respect to his functions as he thinks fit.

(2) The Assembly shall, and the Health Service Commissioner for Wales may, publish reports laid before the Assembly under this paragraph.

Expenses

8.—(1) The expenses of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall, so far as they cannot be met out of income received by him, be met by the Assembly.

(2) Those expenses include any sums payable by the Health Service Commissioner for Wales in consequence of a breach, in the course of the performance of any of his functions, of any contractual or other duty (whether that breach occurs by reason of his act or omission or that of a member of his staff or any other person assisting him in the exercise of his functions).

Estimates

9.—(1) For each financial year of the Assembly after the first, the Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall prepare, and submit to the executive committee, an estimate of the income and expenses of his office.

(2) Each such estimate shall be submitted to the executive committee at least five months before the beginning of the financial year to which it relates.

(3) The executive committee shall examine each such estimate submitted to it and, after having done so, shall lay the estimate before the Assembly with any such modifications as the committee thinks fit.

(4) Where the executive committee proposes to lay such an estimate before the Assembly with modifications, the committee shall first consult the Secretary of State and have regard to any advice which he may give.

(5) In this paragraph "the executive committee" means the committee of the Assembly referred to as the executive committee in the Government of Wales Act 1998.

Accounts

10.—(1) The Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall keep proper accounting records.

(2) The Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall, for each financial year of the Assembly, prepare accounts in accordance with directions given to him by the Treasury.

(3) The directions which the Treasury may give under sub-paragraph (2) include, in particular, directions as to—

1. (a) the information to be contained in the accounts and the manner in which it is to be presented,
2. (b) the methods and principles in accordance with which the accounts are to be prepared, and
3. (c) the additional information (if any) that is to accompany the accounts.

Audit

11.—(1) The accounts prepared by the Health Service Commissioner for Wales for any financial year of the Assembly shall be submitted by him to the Auditor General for Wales no later than five months after the end of that financial year.

(2) The Auditor General for Wales shall—

1. (a) examine and certify any accounts submitted to him under this paragraph, and
2. (b) no later than four months after the accounts are submitted to him, lay before the Assembly a copy of them as certified by him together with his report on them.

(3) In examining any accounts submitted to him under this paragraph, the Auditor General for Wales shall, in particular, satisfy himself that the expenditure to which the accounts relate has been incurred lawfully and in accordance with the authority which governs it.

Accounting officer

12.—(1) The accounting officer for the Office of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall be the Health Service Commissioner for Wales.

(2) But where—

1. (a) the Health Service Commissioner for Wales is incapable of discharging his responsibilities as accounting officer, or
2. (b) the office of Health Service Commissioner for Wales is vacant (and there is no acting Health Service Commissioner for Wales),

the Treasury may designate a member of the staff of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales to be the accounting officer for so long as paragraph (a) or (b) applies.

(3) The accounting officer for the Office of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales shall have, in relation to the accounts of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales and the finances of the Office of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales, the responsibilities which are from time to time specified by the Treasury.

(4) In this paragraph references to responsibilities include in particular—

1. (a) responsibilities in relation to the signing of accounts,
2. (b) responsibilities for the propriety and regularity of the finances of the Office of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales, and
3. (c) responsibilities for the economy, efficiency and effectiveness with which the resources of the Office of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales are used.

(5) The responsibilities which may be specified under this paragraph include responsibilities owed to—

1. (a) the Assembly, the executive committee or the Audit Committee of the Assembly, or
2. (b) the House of Commons or its Committee of Public Accounts.

(6) If requested to do so by the House of Commons Committee of Public Accounts, the Audit Committee of the Assembly may—

1. (a) on behalf of the Committee of Public Accounts take evidence from the accounting officer for the Office of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales, and
2. (b) report to the Committee of Public Accounts and transmit to that Committee any evidence so taken.

(7) In this paragraph and paragraphs 13 and 14 "the Office of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales" means the Health Service Commissioner for Wales and the members of his staff; and in this paragraph "the executive committee" has the same meaning as in paragraph 9.

Examinations into use of resources

13.—(1) The Auditor General for Wales may carry out examinations into the economy, efficiency and effectiveness with which the Health Service Commissioner for Wales has used the resources of the Office of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales in discharging his functions.

(2) Sub-paragraph (1) shall not be construed as entitling the Auditor General for Wales to question the merits of the policy objectives of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales.

(3) In determining how to exercise his functions under this paragraph, the Auditor General for Wales shall take into account the views of the Audit Committee of the Assembly as to the examinations which he should carry out under this paragraph.

(4) The Auditor General for Wales may lay before the Assembly a report of the results of any examination carried out by him under this paragraph.

(5) The Auditor General for Wales and the Comptroller and Auditor General may co-operate with, and give assistance to, each other in connection with the carrying out of examinations in respect of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales under this paragraph or section 7 of the National Audit Act 1983 (economy etc. examinations).

Examinations by the Comptroller and Auditor General

14.—(1) For the purpose of enabling him to carry out examinations into, and report to Parliament on, the finances of the Office of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales, the Comptroller and Auditor General—

1. (a) shall have a right of access at all reasonable times to all such documents in the custody or under the control of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales, or of the Auditor General for Wales, as he may reasonably require for that purpose, and
2. (b) shall be entitled to require from any person holding or accountable for any of those documents any assistance, information or explanation which he reasonably thinks necessary for that purpose.

(2) The Comptroller and Auditor General shall—

1. (a) consult the Auditor General for Wales, and
2. (b) take into account any relevant work done or being done by the Auditor General for Wales,

before he acts in reliance on sub-paragraph (1) or carries out an examination in respect of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales under section 7 of the National Audit Act 1983 (economy etc. examinations)."").

The noble Lord said: I beg to move.

Lord Roberts of Conwy

I confirm the unqualified welcome for the proposal to establish a Welsh Administration Ombudsman and the consequential changes in relation to the Health Service Commissioner. I particularly welcome the fact that the Welsh Administration Ombudsman is not confined to the assembly and its executive. He can examine complaints of maladministration by related bodies, including the new Welsh Development Agency and other bodies receiving a significant proportion of their funding from assembly sources. The possibility that they may be complained against should help keep those bodies on the straight and narrow track of propriety.

I also give a hearty welcome to the novel proposals for a response procedure, when the Welsh Administration Ombudsman has investigated a complaint and found maladministration. The body responsible would be given three months in which to respond. If it fails to do so, or if its response is unsatisfactory, the WAO will issue a further report setting out the action required. If the assembly is the guilty party, the first secretary will be required to move that the assembly approve the WAO's recommendations as to the form of redress.

I hope that it will be quickly established that such motions are normally carried in the assembly. There was a striking contrast between the acceptance by the Welsh Office of parliamentary commissioners' decisions and the grudging refusal of many local authorities to accept the findings of the local government commissioner. If the procedure whereby the first secretary has to move acceptance of the WAO's recommendations prove successful in practice, I hope that a similar procedure will be made obligatory on local authorities.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

I thank the noble Lord for his typically generous remarks. It is an enormous improvement. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, is not here. These amendments have come about because we have listened carefully. I entirely agree with the noble Lord that an in-built structural mechanism is a very useful discipline for government at whatever level.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Schedule 8 [Relations with local government: supplementary]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 246A:

Page 97, line 39, after ("election") insert ("(after the first)").

The noble Lord said: Within this group are Amendments Nos. 246A and 246B together with Amendment No. 247. Amendments Nos. 246A and 246B are technical. The assembly will have to consider changes to its schemes for local government and the voluntary sector in the year following the ordinary elections to the assembly. The amendments are designed to give a degree of flexibility which we thought, on reflection, was more appropriate.

At present, paragraph 6 to Schedule 8 and subsection (5) of Clause 114 would oblige the assembly to consider changing its local government and voluntary sector schemes by May 2000. We have thought about this. The assembly does not come into being until the end of May next year and its early life will be dominated by organising delivery not only of duties placed by the legislation but also the transfer of functions. That will mean that in the first year of the assembly's being the statutory schemes will not have had full 12-month terms. It is sensible not to insist that the assembly should consider whether to change the local government and voluntary sector schemes within the year following the first ordinary elections. We will propose an identical amendment for the sustainable development scheme which the assembly will prepare under Clause 121.

Amendment No. 247 does not allow the assembly to delegate its function for making or revising its scheme with the voluntary sector. This ensures consistency of treatment for the voluntary sector with the other schemes that the assembly will make for local government and sustainable development, where the functions again cannot be delegated. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

I think I understand these two amendments. They are quite sensible. The noble Lord did not say much about Amendment No. 247. I take it that the Government have had second thoughts about any of this being delegated. Amendment No. 247 prevents delegation. It seems to be a little prescriptive, but there is merit in it.

On page 58 of the Bill, subsection (5) says: The Assembly shall keep the scheme under review and in the year following each ordinary election …". I take it that an ordinary election is not the first one. The first election is an extraordinary election. If it is not, then perhaps the Government will need another amendment at Report stage to clear that up.

What the noble Lord has done is quite sensible. Dare I say that it shows the merits of a second Chamber?

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 8, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 114 [Relations with voluntary organisations]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 246B and 247:

Page 58, line 11, after ("election") insert ("(after the first)").

Page 58, line 14, leave out from ("scheme") to end of line 16.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

4 p.m.

On Question, Whether Clause 114, as amended, shall be agreed to?

Lord Aberdare

I am in the rather awkward position of opposing that this clause should stand part when in fact I very much welcome it. I shall be horrified if it is not a part of the Bill. It is the only part that mentions voluntary bodies. The only way to get further information from the Government was to table this kind of probing amendment.

I must declare an interest. I am the president of the National Council of YMCAs in Wales.

When I first became interested in this I wanted to find out some of the statistics about the grants that are made to voluntary bodies. The best information that I could get was in a letter from Win Griffiths, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Welsh Office, to Denzil Davies, MP, on 14th April 1998. This disclosed that the total grants to voluntary bodies by the Welsh Office in the year 1996–97 were over £15 million. This was distributed to 285 different voluntary bodies up and down Wales—north, south, east and west—and, varied in amounts from more than £1 million to the Welsh Books Council to £300 to Ambleston Hall, and there were many grants in between. They arose from various statutes but they are all of great importance to the recipients.

I welcome the scheme envisaged in the clause. It is the main provision of Clause 114. It will form the basis of what comes before the assembly in due course when it takes over the responsibilities from the Secretary of State. It is of great importance to all voluntary bodies in Wales. They all welcome the idea of close co-operation with the assembly. I would ask the noble Lord if he can give more information about the status and timetable of the scheme.

The Wales Council for Voluntary Action, which has a membership of 600 from various organisations, is keen on the scheme and is working hard to produce a draft agreement. However, I should be grateful if the Minister could give us any information about the progress of the scheme, in particular whether it is likely to be published before the Bill leaves this House.

I wish to mention a particular grant scheme which exists under the Headquarter Grants Education Order 1990 to assist the central administration of voluntary bodies in the youth service area. I understand that in Wales it has an annual budget of £361,000, administered by the Wales Youth Agency. Of that, the YMCA received £45,000 this year, the first of a three-year programme. I hope that whatever happens in the future, the new assembly will accept that commitment for the two remaining years because it is of enormous importance to the YMCA. The same applies to other bodies with an on-going programme.

I turn to the future of the youth service in Wales. I should not like it to be thought that the YMCA considered itself to be the only voluntary body. There are many others and all carry out extremely good work. There are, for instance, the Urdd Gobaith Cymru, which is the Welsh voluntary body, the Welsh Association of Youth Clubs, the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme, the Federation of Girls' and Boys' Clubs, the Scouts, the Guides, the young farmers' clubs and various Church bodies. Perhaps I may quote from a document produced by the Wales Youth Agency, Building the Future, to illustrate the importance of the youth service in Wales. It states: In Wales over ¼million young people are in contact with a range of youth work organisations on a regular basis. Young people find youth work attractive and value the opportunities it provides. Youth work is a partnership between voluntary youth organisations and local authority organisations. It offers opportunities to find challenge and adventure, advice, information and counselling, recognition of achievement and enjoyment. Unitary authorities have a statutory duty to ensure the quality of their youth service". The YMCA is at the sharp end of this work, dealing with some of the major problems of young people, including homelessness, unemployment and drug and alcohol abuse, as well as providing social and sporting activities. On any one night, for example, the YMCA provides emergency accommodation in its hostels for 177 young people, 140 of them in Cardiff alone.

Yet since the unitary authorities took over we have lost two full-time and four part-time staff as a result of the withdrawal of grant aid. I know that other youth organisations are in a similar predicament. The Urdd is suffering from reduced funding for its area officers and is also being charged for the premises in which its members meet. The Guides are also paying more for hiring their meeting places.

In the Welsh Office Green Paper, Learning is for Everyone, Chapter 2 refers to the importance of the youth service. Paragraph 23 states: The Youth Service and associated voluntary sector organisations are critically important in the drive towards a learning country". However, its proposals to implement these good intentions are limited to exhortations; for example, clarifying the duty of local authorities to secure a youth service, extending that duty to require local authorities to collaborate with the voluntary sector youth services and so forth. There is no commitment to extra funding, except for a grant of £300,000 to the Wales Youth Agency.

The Government have made education one of their main priorities and have allocated extra funds to local authorities for that purpose. That purpose should include the youth service. However, it is not clear that the extra funding is always used by local authorities for educational purposes, including the youth service.

The Bill, in subsection (4)(a), refers to: how the Assembly proposes to provide assistance to relevant voluntary organisations (whether by grants, loans, guarantees or any other means)". Does that mean that assembly funding will be available to the voluntary bodies involved in the youth service? If so, how does it fit in with the local authorities' statutory duty to provide a youth service? The two appear to overlap.

I cannot help wondering where the assembly is to find much of the money that is required for the youth service. We often hear quoted the figure of £7 billion coming from the Welsh Office when the responsibilities of the Secretary of State are transferred to the assembly. But, unfortunately, that includes financing many demanding commitments; for instance, local authorities and health authorities as well as the cost of establishing and running the assembly itself, including the salaries and expenses of its members. The debate last week on the financial arrangements and the Barnett formula did not suggest that the assembly was likely to have much spare cash.

I am not very sanguine about the future of the youth service. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some encouragement. I conclude with a Welsh saying: Ni wna geiriau teg hau'r tir". It means, "Fair words will not sow the land", or, more colloquially, "Fair words butter no parsnips". I hope that the noble Lord will be able to give us a bit of butter.

Lord Hooson

The purpose of my intervention is simply to ask a question. Is it intended that the national assembly advisory committee or the Welsh Office should draw up a moral scheme for consideration by the assembly? It would be reassuring for those who are concerned about the relationship with voluntary organisations. The assembly can amend the scheme as it wishes, but it would be helpful if there were an intention to take one of those two courses.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for giving us an opportunity to debate briefly the issue of partnership with the voluntary sector. I declare an interest in that the Welsh Language Board, which I chair, has a formal funding partnership with a number of voluntary organisations, including the Wales Council for Voluntary Action.

The national assembly will have a key role in the funding and debating of priorities within the voluntary sector, both directly and indirectly. There is an opportunity for a new strategic partnership not only in the youth service, to which the noble Lord has referred, but in the whole area of social and environmental policy which has such an active voluntary sector in Wales. It is estimated that if the 23,000-plus voluntary organisations were active at the same time one in three of the population would be involved in the voluntary sector in Wales. There is a wealth of experience and good will which must be mobilised in partnership with the assembly in order to create a new kind of society in the context of which we will operate in the 21st century.

Already the voluntary sector exhibits that inclusivity and participation of which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, Ron Davies, speaks so often. I sincerely hope that the Government will take on board the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Hooson. Already compacts are developing between government and the voluntary sector throughout the UK.

I assume that any preparatory relationship or scheme between the voluntary sector and the assembly would be on the lines of the compacts already being drafted for all four nations of the UK, recognising the role of the voluntary sector, the key policy statements of voluntary organisations, the need for volunteering and the whole area of community development and, equally important, the whole procedure for partnership and representation, particularly representation in relation to funding decisions.

Here, I declare myself to be on a learning curve, because it is not easy for a public body, when dealing with voluntary organisations, to understand the nature of that organisation's culture. Very often it is possible for a public body to have certain priorities which may be strategically sound and which may have key functional objectives, but they are not well understood by voluntary organisations. It is particularly important that the assembly approaches the voluntary sector in a way different from its approach to local government, to the health service, as we have already heard, and to other partnership organisations which have a statutory basis.

For that reason, there is much merit in the WCVA's suggestion of a joint liaison committee, not that we want to create too many committees. However, there is a case for such a committee to advise the assembly and members of the voluntary sector and to oversee the working of the voluntary sector scheme.

Also, I am attracted by the proposal that there should be a support centre for the activity of the voluntary sector, providing information and support within the assembly building itself or close to it. I understand that the WCVA has made an offer on behalf of the sector to seek the funding for the operation of such a facility. There needs to be space for it so that there can be a close relationship between the voluntary sector and the assembly in practice.

The Earl of Courtown

Like my noble friend Lord Aberdare, I welcome this clause but there are one or two points which concern me which I should like the Minister to clarify. I should also declare an interest as a trustee of a chronic pain charity which is based in South Wales.

My main concern is that voluntary fund-raisers are already complying with many rules and regulations as to how they work. Although I accept that there is a need for such regulation, it is now becoming excessive in places and it irritates many hard-working and dedicated fund-raisers who, quite understandably, do not like to be told to fill in more forms and comply with more regulations. Therefore, I am anxious that the assembly will not increase needless bureaucracy.

Finally, will the Minister tell me whether the assembly will be able to alter or change in any way anything concerning the relationship between charities and the Charity Commission? If so, what and how? I suspect that primary legislation would be required, but I should be grateful to the Minister if he would clarify the point.

Lord Stanley or Alderley

I have my name to this Motion for the same reason as my noble friend Lord Aberdare; that is, to try to find out what the Government have in mind with regard to the assembly's role in relation to voluntary organisations.

As my noble friends Lord Aberdare and Lord Courtown have explained the possible problems, I shall emphasise only one particular point. Will the assembly have the power to make rules and regulations for those voluntary organisations which are not dependent in any way whatever on state money or aid? I am thinking of, for example, the RNLI which is supported entirely by voluntary money and help.

Perhaps I may repeat what my noble friend Lord Courtown has just said. I accept now and I accepted during the passage of charities legislation that charities, particularly with regard to their money, need careful supervision. But on behalf of those many selfless and dedicated men and women—I call them slaves—who put in their time for nothing, I ask for an assurance from the Minister that the assembly will not add any bureaucracy to irritate them because, as the Committee will know, I do not trust politicians, assembly members or councillors not to be tempted to do so.

4.15 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

Whatever the scale of the statutory provisions and whatever the market can provide, I am sure that in Wales we cannot go along without the voluntary contribution. Therefore, I am extremely grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has given us an opportunity to discuss this clause, a clause which gives me a great deal of satisfaction.

Reference has been made to the scheme and I should like to ask two or three specific questions about it. First, it is my understanding—and this picks up a point made by my noble friend Lord Hooson—that the proposed scheme will to a greater extent be based on the draft voluntary sector compact, which, as I understand it, is currently out for consultation. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that.

Secondly, I am told by many people who are engaged with the voluntary sector in Wales that the relationships between the voluntary bodies and the assembly are not the only relationships which will matter. They tell me that the relationships between the voluntary bodies and the assembly and also local authorities will matter a great deal. That is because—and I believe the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, suggested that that is the case—in Wales, compared with England, there are very few financial resources available to the voluntary organisations, apart from local and central government.

Therefore, it is important to foster the relationship between the assembly, the local authorities and the voluntary organisations. But I am not sure that that can be achieved in the proposed scheme. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that.

Secondly, the permanent voluntary services unit is not without its critics. But I believe that there should be a group of inter-departmental senior officials within the Welsh assembly, possibly with an assembly secretary in the chair, to consider the relevance of voluntary activities across the frontiers of all the departments of the assembly. I ask the Minister whether that can be addressed in the scheme.

Perhaps I may refer next to the report of Lord Wolfenden on the future of voluntary organisations which was published in 1978. The committee envisaged that in the event of a Welsh assembly being established, there would be an increasing role for a central body representing the across-the-board interest of voluntary organisations in Wales to give a lead in providing advice and information. I believe that that recommendation is still valid and should be taken on board by the voluntary organisations in Wales.

Finally, reference was made to the charity commissioners. I have great respect for the charity commissioners and I have found them to be extremely helpful. But the day may well come when in Wales we shall need a Welsh office of the Charity Commissioners so that we do not have to look to Liverpool, Taunton or London. With those few remarks, I endorse very much what has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Aberdare and Lord Stanley.

Lord Roberts of Conwy

Like other Members of the Committee, I, too, have received a letter dated 21st May, which is very supportive of the clause from the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. In addition to the 600 organisations that the council represents in Wales, it states in the letter that it is in contact with a great many more. I know that organisation and I have no reason to doubt its claims.

The WCVA has very high expectations of the assembly and of the anticipated scheme. It states in the letter that there is a draft compact arising out of the Labour Party's election manifesto commitments, which is already available for consultation in Wales and elsewhere. The Welsh compact sets out how the Government will work with the voluntary sector. It covers recognition of the respective roles of the voluntary sector and government, key policy statements on voluntary organisations, procedures for representation, partnership working and funding administration.

Therefore, the council says: The Compact will … provide a framework of mutual expectations and commitments upon which the Assembly will be able to base its working arrangements with the voluntary sector". The same letter from Peter Bryant, who is head of policy for the WCVA, goes on to argue the need for a joint body to which the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, referred—that is, a joint body between the assembly and the voluntary sector. The letter states quite clearly: It is proposed that there should be a joint liaison committee, made up of members of the Assembly and elected representatives of the sector, to oversee the implementation and working of the Voluntary Sector Scheme". It also states that the liaison committee should report to the assembly's executive committee and to that of the WCVA. So the WCVA is very clear about what it wants from this particular clause.

Indeed, the letter finally proposes that, a voluntary sector information and support centre should be established within the Assembly building". I pause for breath here because I wonder whether all these aspirations have been taken into account. I certainly hope that they were not just referendum-time promises, which were made to the voluntary sector simply to harvest a "Yes" vote. If such promises were made but not honoured, I have no doubt that there would be very deep disappointment throughout the sector.

However, while I wish the implementation of the clause well, I believe that someone should utter a word of caution to the voluntary sector and its representatives in Wales that it must safeguard its independence. Welcome as government support in financial and organisational terms may be, surely the strength of the sector lies in its independence and in its voluntary basis and spirit, which must on no account be compromised. As Mr. Bryant states on page one of the letter to which I referred, The Assembly will … Determine policy and priorities in the majority of areas of concern to the voluntary sector; control, directly or indirectly, most of the public funding for the sector; oversee or influence the activities of most of the agencies with which the sector works". and so on. That seems to me to spell out an enormous amount of influence on the voluntary sector. I hope that both parties—that is, the assembly and the voluntary sector—are aware of the potential fragility of their relationship and that they respect each other's independence as well as perhaps the dependence of the voluntary sector. It would be fatal to the voluntary sector if it found itself excessively controlled and directed by the public sector only to have its voluntarism exploited for uncertain ends.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

I am most grateful to Members of the Committee who have spoken, not least the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, who raised the question some months ago in this Chamber as to what place there would be in the Government of Wales Bill for the voluntary sector. I remember indicating to him that Clause 114 was likely to deal with that area.

The thrust of what has been said by all noble Lords, is, I hope, entirely consistent with what has been set out in Clause 114. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, asked for a little more precision as regards dates and timing, which I shall now outline. The Secretary of State for Wales is formulating with the WCVA, and other representatives of the voluntary sector in Wales, a compact setting out the future relationship with the voluntary sector. The consultation exercise was launched on 6th March and will run until 10th July.

The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, asked if I could give an indication as to whether or not the conclusions will have been published by the time of Third Reading. All I can say at present is that discussions are going extremely well, as I am sure the noble Lord knows. It is hoped to reach final agreement later this summer. I do not know the date of Third Reading, but I believe that it would be reasonable for me to undertake to write to the noble Lord shortly before Third Reading, placing a copy of the letter in the Library, giving as much detail as I shall then have. It may not contain definitive conclusions, but at least I shall be able to recite the story so far. I undertake to do so.

Other specific questions were raised. The noble Earl, Lord Courtown, posed two important questions. First, it is very important that the dead hand of bureaucracy—and that is an awful mixed metaphor—does not extend its reach. I say that because, if it were dead, it could not do so by definition. I take that point on board. I was formerly a trustee of the NSPCC and I recognise that there is sometimes irritation, especially where money is being donated by members of the public. They are entitled to have it scrupulously dealt with. There is nothing more of a disincentive to voluntary giving than the fear, sometimes unfortunately justified, that money is being used for illegitimate purposes in the running of an organisation in a way that is not as prudent as it should be.

Two noble Lords referred to the Charity Commission. There is no prospect of the Welsh assembly being able to interfere with the statute which relates to the Charity Commission. It is not a Welsh Office function. Indeed, I must place another hat on my fevered brow because it is a Home Office function. As regards the specific question from the noble Lord, Lord Stanley of Alderley, as to whether or not the Welsh assembly would be able to impose rules and regulations on such bodies as the RNLI which are in receipt of no public money, it does not seem to me that that would fall within the remit of the assembly. However, as charities, they would be subject to the usual remit of the Charity Commission.

Other specific questions were raised about how the compact would work. The noble Lord, Lord Hooson, and my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies, asked whether or not this would be a template. It would certainly be a pretty clear indication of what discussions had indicated was likely to be useful. Ultimately it will be for the assembly to decide. However, bearing in mind the nature of the consultation, which is very widespread, one would assume that the assembly would pay close regard to the compact which had been negotiated even if it could not literally be bound by its terms.

My noble friend Lord Prys-Davies spoke about voluntary bodies which have a connection with local authorities. Indeed, that is certainly the case with the NSPCC in various different ways. That would not be included in the scheme because the assembly cannot bind local authorities in their relationships with charitable bodies. However, there is no reason at all why they should not consult. I very much take on board the points made by my noble friend. All of his points relating to relations between local government and voluntary bodies and whether there should be a joint working group seem to me to be ideas for development by the assembly.

On the question of a compact, I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, who referred to other work. He is quite right. There is parallel work along the same lines by Secretaries of State in other parts of the United Kingdom who have responsibility for voluntary sector matters. We gave a commitment in the White Paper that the compact would be in place. The purpose of Clause 114 is to require the assembly to draw up a scheme to cover the same kind of subject matter. I assure the Committee that before Clause 114 was drafted there was consultation between the Welsh Office and the WCVA at official level. The provision has been given a warm reception by the voluntary sector.

The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, asked about funding. One finds the answer in part in Clause 114(4) which states, The scheme shall specify— how the Assembly proposes to provide assistance to relevant voluntary organisations (whether by grants, loans, guarantees or any other means)". I take the noble Lord's point that that will be subject to the assembly's discretion within the overall budget of £7 billion or so.

I believe that we have behaved properly and honourably towards the voluntary sector. We consulted it about the proposals for the compact. We consulted it about the precise drafting of Clause 114. On that basis of co-operative endeavour I invite the Committee to come to the conclusion in due time that this clause should stand part of the Bill. I recognise that the noble Lord raised legitimate questions. In many ways Clause 114 is the noble Lord's progeny, at least in part.

Clause 114 agreed to.

4.30 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendment No. 247ZA:

After Clause 114, insert the following new clause—

CONSULTATION WITH BUSINESS AND VOLUNTARY ORGANISATIONS

(" . The Assembly shall carry out consultation with representatives of business, representatives of voluntary organisations and the Partnership Council, having regard to the impact of the exercise by the Assembly of its functions on their respective interests.").

The noble Lord said: This group of amendments relates to Clause 115 and concerns the consultation which representatives of business will have with the assembly. Clause 115 of the Bill states, The Assembly shall carry out such consultation with representatives of business as it considers appropriate". My noble friend and I have tabled amendments to try to strengthen that provision. However, our preferred position is stated in Amendment No. 247ZA which seeks to rewrite Clause 115 and to put in its place our proposed new clause. I believe that the provisions in our proposed new clause are a good deal stronger than those in Clause 115. Our proposed new clause acknowledges the voluntary organisations and asks for consultation with them. It also acknowledges the existence of the partnership council and asks for consultation with it as regards any issue which has an impact on the functions of these bodies. We simply state in the amendment that, The Assembly shall carry out consultation", with regard to all the organisations I have mentioned. We do not state that the assembly shall carry out consultation as it considers appropriate. This is particularly important as regards manufacturing industry. If the Government do not like voluntary organisations and the partnership council being included in the clause, our other amendments in the group I am discussing would simply amend Clause 115 to make it state, The Assembly shall carry out consultation with representatives of business having regard to the impact". We should not leave it to the assembly to decide whether it is appropriate to consult.

Over the past 19 years, Wales, like some other parts of the United Kingdom, has seen considerable change in its industrial base. It still has steelworks at Llanwern and Port Talbot, although perhaps I should not say that too loudly in Scotland. It has seen a huge growth in its electronics industry, its electronics components industry and its car industry. These new industries are just as important now as was the traditional mining industry in the past. Therefore it is important that businesses are consulted by the assembly. I have no doubt the Minister will tell me that the wording in the Bill, The Assembly shall carry out such consultation with representatives of business as it considers appropriate", means that the assembly will consult widely and on everything. Ministers always say that when we discuss this kind of amendment. The Opposition have every right not to believe Ministers. That is the name of the game, so to speak. If the assembly intends to consult widely and in virtually every case, why is that not on the face of the Bill, and why not delete the words in the Bill, "as it considers appropriate"?

I wish to discuss Amendment No. 247A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, as it covers the same ground. However, he goes a good deal further than my proposed new clause in Amendment No. 247ZA. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, in his amendment specifies a considerable number of businesses and organisations. As I said, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and I are covering the same ground here. We want to see a little more in Clause 115 than three lines of text to cover the relationship between business and the assembly. Clause 114 is lengthy and is devoted to voluntary organisations. Clause 113, which is also fairly lengthy, is devoted to relations with local government. I believe that Clause 115 should be more detailed. If it must be brief, its content should be a good deal stronger than it is. My proposed new clause proposes a way of strengthening the measure. If the Government do not want to go that far, the two amendments to Clause 115 in my name, and that of my noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy, suggest how the measure could be strengthened a little more. I beg to move.

Lord Thomas of Gresford

I support the spirit of the amendment. I believe it is important that there should be direct and ready access among business, voluntary organisations, organisations such as the partnership council and the new assembly. In the previous amendment we discussed the possibility of a joint committee with voluntary organisations. To my mind it is wrong that there should be a filter between the assembly and the businesses and associations that it is intended to serve which would prevent direct communication. We support that aspect of this amendment.

Further, we believe it is important that there should be a positive duty upon the assembly to consult. Obviously as regards ordinary run of the mill matters it will consult, but the critical issues which cause controversy may be the ones where consultation is ignored. For that reason I support the amendment.

Lord Elis-Thomas

At the risk of my reputation, I again find myself in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish. There is an important issue here for the unfolding of the assembly's work. In that context I welcome the great weekend declaration at Llangollen made by William Hague; namely, that we are all now to make the assembly work. I also welcome the declaration of Mr. Michael Ancram that we are all now new unionists. We must wait to see what happens as regards the Conservative Party in the assembly. I say all that to cover myself.

The important point here is that we should treat all our social partners in the assembly on the same basis. I am a little fascinated by the wording in the relevant clauses that refer to those social partners. As regards local government under Clause 113, the assembly is to "sustain and promote" it. In Clause 114, as regards the voluntary organisations we have just debated, the assembly is, to promote the interests of relevant voluntary organisations". A little later we shall discuss equality of opportunity, to which we must have due regard. A report will have to be made on that subject. "Sustainable development", which again we shall discuss later, is to be promoted. But when we come to the poor business sector, the assembly is, according to Clause 115, only to, carry out such consultation with representatives of business as it considers appropriate … ". There is a serious defect here in the Bill. It seems to me that the legislation we are drafting for the National Assembly for Wales falls far short of the best practice of other European legislation and indeed of the best practice of the European Union, its parliament, its Commission, ECOSOC, its Committee of the Regions, and so on, where there are very clear procedures for consultation with business and business experts in any area where legislation is being drafted and regulations are being prepared, so that the business sector knows the direct costs. By the "business sector" I mean, in accordance with my Amendment No. 247A, a whole series of potential forms of enterprise, including people employed by those forms of enterprise and indeed charities and other organisations in the third sector. Whatever the businesses are and whatever form they take, then surely the business costs to them of regulation are an essential issue.

We debated this matter earlier when I put forward a proposal which I discussed with CBI Wales to try to have the business impact assessed. I appreciate upon due reflection that may not have been the appropriate part of the Bill to try to secure an amendment, but it seems to me that Clause 115 is far too broad, too unspecific and too lacking in content in contrast with other social partnerships and factors we have been debating.

It is essential that we should have, if not a strengthened clause, then standing orders to ensure a form of consultation for all aspects of relevant subordinate legislation of the assembly with the business sector and that there should be clear deadlines and procedures for all such consultation. Indeed, there might be a case for using the regional committees as an important form of business consultation. But there should be clear guidelines in standing orders on the intended form and structure of business consultation.

I give one final example of what I mean. We witnessed yesterday in Cardiff a marvellously good-spirited demonstration on very serious issues relating to the agricultural industry and the countryside. The Secretary of State, Mr. Ron Davies, saw fit—and I congratulate him—to meet not only representatives of the farming unions but also others who are in social partnership in the country side, the voluntary bodies and others involved in the demonstration in support of the agricultural industry.

Consultation is not something which should take place only in periods of crisis. It should be an ongoing part of the assembly's activity. All forms of business, agricultural businesses, service industries, tourism organisations and the very important manufacturing sector, should take part. Maybe the Government will tell us that the specific scheme for dealing with business is the Welsh Development Agency in its new form. I notice that the agency in its statement on the enlarged WDA, and very active and communicative chairman, David Rowe-Beddoe, emphasise that the enlarged WDA will be highly customer focused and will provide greater support to indigenous business and in particular SMEs.

So the commitment is there from the WDA on behalf of the assembly to be a closer business partner of indigenous businesses and of SMEs in Wales and of all the agency's potential customers. Why can we not have that clearly stated in the clause which involves business? Why can we not have the commitment to enterprise which we know to be at the heart of this Government's policies and of the policies of all the political parties in Wales more clearly spelt out on the face of the Bill?

Lord Stanley of Alderley

I put down a similar question concerning consultation with agriculture earlier. I got the usual "trust the assembly" answer. I hope that the noble Lord, when replying to my noble friend and indeed to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, will be able to be more specific this time.

Lord Prys-Davies

I have listened very carefully to what has been said by noble Lords and I want to refer to Amendment No. 247A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and in particular to paragraph (d). To the best of my recollection, the term "social partners" is not employed in the Bill. The word "business" is employed and "representatives of business" is a term used in Clause 115. However, the word "business" is an indefinite term. I believe that its meaning is wider than "trade". I believe it includes (a), (b) and (c) in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, but does it include a trade union?

I am interested in a commitment to discussions with representatives of the trade unions. I have my doubts whether the man on the Rhondda omnibus would understand the term "business" to include his trade union although I have no doubt that he would wish that to be so. I do not have with me the relevant House of Commons Hansard, but I seem to recall that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales, Mr. Ron Davies, explained in the other place that the term is intended to include trade unions. I would support that, but I believe that the clause requires amendment to make it abundantly clear.

4.45 p.m.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

I have a good deal of sympathy with the thrust of what the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies said. My noble friend is quite right. The Secretary of State did give an assurance when Clause 115 was being considered in another place that consultation with business would include consultation with trade unions, and of course the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, Amendment No. 247A, together with this group, includes all four amendments spoken to and in a sense prefigures the debate on Clause 115 stand part.

Amendment No. 247A does take the matter further by defining "business" in the way set out by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. The problem with that approach is that there is always a danger that something may be left off the list. We have tried to avoid over-prescription and to look for flexibility, but I take the noble Lord's point very much to heart, because what I have just said relates to drafting and is not about substance.

On the substantive point made, not least by the noble Lords, Lord Elis-Thomas and Lord Prys-Davies, I see the force of the argument. If the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, will withdraw his amendment I undertake to come back at Report stage with an amendment reflecting our preferred approach to drafting; there is not really an issue of substance between us. I think that ought to satisfy the reasonable requirements of the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish.

Amendment No. 247ZA puts a new clause into the Bill. I am not sure how confident the noble Lord is about the amendment, because it jars with what is already in the Bill. Subsection (4)(c), which we discussed on the last amendment, already makes it plain that the voluntary sector scheme has obligations in respect of consultation. The partnership council could, as the noble Lord, Lord Mackay, indicated, be the forum for the usual consultation on local government finance. We do not therefore think that Amendment No. 247ZA helps at all: in fact it really rather muddies the waters.

Amendments Nos. 247ZB and 247ZC are, as the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, pointed out, simply intended to take out the words "such" and "as it considers appropriate". No assembly ought to be required to carry out consultation with representatives of business which it does not consider to be appropriate. If we adopt the approach suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas—as I have indicated we accept it in substance and general thrust—that ought to meet the legitimate requirements of the noble Lord.

I would point out that Clause 66 places quite a number of duties on the assembly. There have to be various regulatory appraisals, including consultation with business, before subordinate legislation is given effect by the assembly where burdens might fall on business. So the interests of business in the field of subordinate legislation are well covered by Clause 66. If we bring forward an amendment intended to cover trade unions and similar organisations, that ought to meet the reasonable requirements of all noble Lords who have spoken.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I am grateful to the Minister for his response, and in particular for the last few sentences. He referred to my potential Amendment No. 247A in the context of Clause 66, which is already incorporated in the Bill.

It might be appropriate, as the Minister ponders on fleshing out the spirit of his intention, for him again to examine Clause 66 to see where certain aspects of business consultation not spelt out in the clause might be spelt out more specifically in his redrafted amendment on Report. On that basis, I welcome his remarks.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

I am sure that all of us who have taken part in the debate are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, for his response. Matters were lining up to be an interesting four against one. However, the noble Lord was crafty enough to see that a small amount of movement would be a good thing in response to four noble Lords who thought that the clause was not quite right.

I am grateful to the Minister. Some of the parts of his answer I well recognised. I think the computer must simply slot in the usual study when somebody asks for a list. I can remember saying, too, that something might be left off it. And I remember that many noble Lords did not believe me. So perhaps I have just joined the list of those who do not believe, having come from the list of those who do believe.

The noble Lord understands the point that we have all made about the importance of business. I was idly looking at the wording of Clauses 113, 114 and 115. Business could certainly be forgiven for feeling that it was very much thrown in as an afterthought. I know that that is not what the Government meant. I am therefore grateful, as we all are, to the noble Lord for promising to take this matter away and return to the House incorporating some of the points that have been made. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 115 [Consultation with business]:

[Amendments Nos. 247ZB to 247A not moved.]

Clause 115 agreed to.

Clauses 116 to 118 agreed to.

Clause 119 [Publication and inspection of documents]:

The Solicitor-General (Lord Falconer of Thoroton) moved Amendment No. 247B:

Page 61, line 12, leave out ("of the Assembly").

The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment has already been spoken to. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 119, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 120 [Equality of opportunity]:

On Question, Whether Clause 120 shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

Rather than table any amendments to this clause, I thought it as well to indicate that I was not content with the clause and to ask the Minister a few questions in relation to it. Having been chided on a number of occasions about this Parliament acting, as it were, as the "nanny" or Big Brother of the Welsh assembly and trying to include matters in the Bill which the assembly would be perfectly able to do for itself, it seemed to me that Clause 120 comes well within that category. I suppose it is included for reasons of political correctness. I cannot think of any other reason. Perhaps the noble Lord will therefore explain why the Government feel it necessary to include this clause. Is it that they do not trust the assembly to deal with these matters properly?

As the clause stands, whose equality of opportunity are we talking about? Are we referring to those who are to be employed by the assembly, those who will be members of it; or are we looking at every part of the outside world which will have dealings with the assembly—agriculture, business, and so on? The clause seems rather vague. I am not sure exactly whose equality of opportunity we are addressing. Perhaps the Minister will explain.

If the Minister means the clause to be rather narrower than merely an all-embracing motherhood and apple pie provision, perhaps he ought to come forward with an amendment narrowing down the application of the clause either to the membership of the assembly or to those who will be directly employed by it. The former will be decided by the electorate; the latter are the only people over whom the assembly has some sort of control and some sort of say. I therefore wonder what the clause means. I have the distinct impression that it was slotted in as a matter of political correctness and that it does not carry a great deal of weight. If that is the case, possibly it could be omitted and the assembly could be allowed to deal with these matters on its own. It would reduce the Bill just a little. It is fairly extensive Bill, made more extensive by amendments that have already been made.

Lord Elis-Thomas

Here comes my golden opportunity to distance myself completely from the noble Lord, Lord Mackay. I have had the great privilege of trying to implement legislation involving the principle of equality in the field of language for almost six years. In that work, equality has been an important guiding principle for me, not only in relation to the organisation of the Welsh Language Board but in relation to those with whom we have sought partnerships.

I understand this clause to mean what it says; namely, it seeks to promote real equality of opportunity for all people in Wales within the purview of the assembly. The clause is followed by a statement of the arrangements for giving effect to this principle and to how equality is to be promoted.

That provides an opportunity for the assembly to promote nor merely linguistic equality but equality of opportunity in terms of gender. In addition, it can promote equality of opportunity in terms of what is described in UK parlance as ethnic minority communities, although I do not like that wording.

Therefore, we are in a sense creating the opportunity in this clause to develop a form of citizenship of Wales, where all those citizens of the country and the new assembly will live under the principle of equality of opportunity for all people. That can be a very positive framework. The noble Lord, Lord Mackay, referred to motherhood and apple pie. It is not about that. It is about the basis of consensual democracy, which is equality of opportunity for all people.

In the past we have seen some vicious debates on the lines of "linguicism" in Wales, if I may use that term, and certainly on the lines of racism. We have also seen—and there is no danger of my exciting the noble Lord, Lord Islwyn, since he is not in his place—examples of sexism within Wales in all political parties and outwith political parties. This clause gives the assembly the guiding light of equality with which to work. Therefore I warmly welcome its inclusion in the Bill. I look forward to seeing the assembly working hard at implementing in practice the principle that is stated in this clause.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

I must confess that I find the arguments advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, in support of Clause 120 absolutely convincing and persuasive. It is perfectly plain that the clause has two functions. It sets out an objective from which I should not have thought one could dissent. Further, as regards "over-nannying" and not allowing the assembly to get on with things, arrangements are left entirely for the assembly.

I revert to and echo the spirit of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy. It is useful to have a particular discipline. The discipline is set down in Clause 120(2), that after every financial year, far from saying "Mom and apple pie are, by and large, a good thing conceptually", the assembly must get down to the nitty gritty of saying what arrangements have been made and how effective those arrangements were. I cannot think of a better scheme of devolved power to the assembly with an objective stated, but with the assembly, within the parameters of subsection (2), setting down its own standing orders.

The noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, asked: whose opportunities? Of course it would include employees and members. One would expect that as a matter of course. Perhaps I may give one illustration. If the assembly were considering an aspect of public transport, it would have to do so having regard to disabled people's capacity to benefit from those transport services. It would have to make arrangements to ensure that that aspect of policy was considered. It seems to me that it is rightly in the Bill. There is a correct balance of objective on the face of the Bill—arrangements to be on the basis of subsidiarity, as it were, to be decided by the assembly.

I take it that the noble Lord was only probing because I am sure that these days no one would suggest that one should disagree with the principle of equality of opportunity for all people. I commend the clause.

Clause 120 agreed to.

5 p.m.

Clause 121 [Sustainable development]:

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 247C:

Page 61, line 22, leave out from ("out") to end of line 24 and insert ("how it proposes, in the exercise of its functions, to promote sustainable development.").

The noble and learned Lord said: Members of the Committee will be aware that in February in another place my right honourable friend the Secretary of State introduced an amendment to the Bill which, among other things, placed a duty on the assembly to: Make a scheme setting out its proposals for securing that its functions are exercised with due regard to the principle that sustainable development should be promoted". Those provisions are now found in Clause 121(1).

Since then, the Government have been impressed with the arguments both from within this House during Second Reading and from other interested bodies that the provisions in the Bill relating to sustainable development should be clarified.

Amendments Nos. 247C, 247E and 247F reflect the Government's response and, I trust, will be seen as a yet further example of this Front Bench being prepared to listen carefully to any and all proposals aimed at improving the Bill.

Amendment No. 247E deals with subsection (1) to Clause 121 and would place a clear and direct duty on the assembly to make a scheme setting out how it proposes, in the exercise of its functions, to promote sustainable development. This is an important change and reflects the Government's strong commitment to sustainable development. The amendment to subsection (2), Amendment No. 247E, is simply to ensure that the assembly is not required to review its scheme in the year following the first election (for fairly obvious reasons already referred to by my noble friend in respect of the voluntary sector) but that it will have to do so after each succeeding ordinary election.

Amendment No. 247F introduces a very important change which I am sure will be welcomed by the Committee. It requires the assembly to produce a report after each ordinary election after the first, giving an assessment of how effective its proposals (as set out in the scheme and implemented) have been in promoting sustainable development.

I believe the amendments show the Government's clear commitment to sustainable development. I beg to move.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I warmly welcome the amendments, not only on behalf of myself and the Party of Wales, but particularly on behalf of the broad environmental movement in Wales and outside. It places the assembly not only in the context of sustainable development worldwide, within the EU and the UK, but it also provides it with a specific mechanism for assessing its own performance. That is what some of us sought earlier when we emphasised the possibility of an environmental audit committee. Clearly, were the assembly to establish an environmental audit committee, that committee would be an ideal engine for assessing its effectiveness and contributing to that assessment.

I congratulate the Government on the strong wording of the specific proposals. I am certain that they will be welcomed broadly within the environmental movement and they therefore place the assembly—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—as probably the only government institution in the United Kingdom, the only level of elected government in the United Kingdom, to have those specific objectives. No doubt that is exceptional, even in the European Union. That allows me to refer in passing to the traffic-free experience we all had in Cardiff this morning, due to the European Council.

The new assembly may well be the first elected body in the European Union to be so strongly committed to the principle of sustainable development. It is appropriate and I congratulate the Government on taking that action.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, for explaining the two amendments. I am sorry the noble Baroness, Lady Young, is not here to raise the issues that concern her and, no doubt, the interests she represents. I shall refrain from asking for a definition of "sustainable development" because it comes under the same label as motherhood and apple pie and I should accept it for what it is.

Lord Elis-Thomas

The noble Lord's government, of which he was a strong supporter and member, produced numerous tomes defining "sustainable development" in great detail under the signature of his previous leader, John Major, his previous environmental Minister, John Gummer, and so on.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

Perhaps that is why I do not ask for a definition of "sustainable development", because it would take far too long. In any case, I do not believe that the previous government ever tried to put such matters in an Act of Parliament. Never mind. I am not trying to get into an argument, I simply say that it would be interesting to hear the Minister give us an explanation of "sustainable development". I do not wish to tempt him because we want to get on.

As I read the parts of the Bill, my only observation is that I am surprised that similar obligations are not being placed on the Scottish parliament. I shall need to examine why the Welsh assembly needs all the instructions from here, whereas the Scottish parliament does not.

Lord Moran

The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, unfortunately cannot be here this afternoon and has asked me to move Amendments Nos. 247D and 247G in her absence. I shall be happy to do so. The noble Baroness and I welcome the Government's amendment, Amendment No. 247C, which clarifies and simplifies the sustainable development responsibilities of the assembly. At Second Reading I described the original clause on sustainable development as "opaque". This one is much better.

Amendment No. 247D, tabled by the noble Baroness), refers to the scheme for sustainable development which the assembly will make. The amendment would achieve two things. First, it would provide a modest framework to focus discussion on the content of the scheme, including objectives monitoring the impact of policies and consultation. The National Assembly Advisory Group, in its consultation document, stressed that it would like to see the assembly's working practices having a strong focus on objectives and outcomes. The amendment applies the criteria to the sustainable development scheme that the assembly will produce.

The framework for the content of the scheme is not intended in any way to pre-empt the assembly's prerogative to decide its policies on sustainable development in the context of a sustainable development scheme. It merely provides pointers for the overall shape of the scheme and will help the discussion input for a whole range of organisations in Wales which wish to contribute to the scheme, including the national conference on sustainable development which has been announced for early 1999 and which the noble Baroness, Lady Young, welcomes. It also brings the provisions for the scheme into line with the provisions for a similar scheme—that connected with relations with voluntary organisations under Clause 114—and will give some consistency to the two schemes. Overall, the amendment will build on and improve the Government's welcome Amendment No. 247C.

Amendment No. 247G is an amendment to the Government's Amendment No. 247F. The Government's intention to introduce a process for reporting on the effectiveness of the sustainable development proposals in the scheme is to be welcomed. The issue addressed by Amendment No. 247G relates to the timing and frequency of the report on effectiveness. The Government's proposal is that the report should take place every four years in the year after each ordinary election. Four years is a long period before review and assessment of the effectiveness of a scheme, especially in the early days of a new body like the assembly which will be feeling its way in terms of sustainable development responsibilities.

Amendment No. 247G proposes a two-year review period. That would have the benefit of avoiding the review coming immediately after an election with little opportunity for the assembly which set the scheme to learn from its operation. A new assembly, reviewing the scheme immediately after an election, would risk having less ownership of the scheme and less likelihood therefore of an interest in whether or not the scheme had succeeded.

Sustainable development will not be achieved overnight, but a lot can happen in two years. It will be sad if we are four years down the line before we know that some of the policies for sustainable development are not effective.

Clause 120 on equality of opportunity contains provisions for annual assessment of the effectiveness of the assembly's arrangement. There is therefore a precedent.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

I am grateful that all Members of the Committee who spoke in the debate welcomed the provisions of the amendment proposed by the Government in relation to sustainable development. Perhaps I can begin by dealing with the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone who could not be here today.

The amendment proposes, first, that particulars be prescribed for the assembly in relation to what it must put into its scheme and, instead of producing a report every four years after an ordinary election, it is said that there should be a report every two years.

In relation to the greater prescription, the government amendment requires the assembly to set out how it proposes to promote sustainable development. It is a clear, utterly straightforward obligation. As has been made clear to the Committee, we on this side of the Chamber believe that the assembly must be left with a discretion to determine for itself how it will deal with a range of matters relating to the exercise of its functions, including setting forward its scheme in relation to sustainable development.

While we recognise the sincerity with which the amendment was tabled, we believe that our amendment, with its straightforwardness and clarity, is better. In relation to the proposal that a report be prepared every two years, we believe again that our amendment strikes the right balance.

Sustainable development is not about a quick fix. This Government have a broad agenda for sustainable development, encompassing a range of economic, social and environmental objectives. We would expect the assembly to take forward that agenda in Wales. But inevitably sustainable development must look to the long-term future and many of its measures may not be capable of short-term assessment. Having an assessment after each ordinary election would be more appropriate in that it allows time for the assembly's proposals to be adopted and for their effectiveness to be assessed. In that context we consider four years to be more appropriate than two years.

Lord Moran

On behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, let me say that I am grateful to the Minister, though I am a little disappointed. The amendment did not seek to prescribe, so much as to focus on the principal concerns involved and therefore to speed up the process of working out a proper scheme for sustainable development. However, I understand what the Minister says. I hope that the four-year period will work out. But I fear that, coming immediately after an election, it may not be the best way of reporting. That said, I do not intend to press the amendments.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 247D not moved.]

5.15 p.m.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 247E:

Page 61, line 26, after ("election") insert ("(after the first)").

The noble and learned Lord said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 247F:

Page 61, line 38, at end insert— ("( ) In the year following each ordinary election (after the first) the Assembly shall publish a report containing an assessment of how effective its proposals (as set out in the scheme and implemented) have been in promoting sustainable development.").

The noble and learned Lord said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

[Amendment No. 247G, as an amendment to Amendment No. 247F, not moved.]

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 121, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 122 to 124 agreed to.

Clause 125 [Stamp Duty]:

On Question, Whether Clause 125 shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My purpose in opposing that this clause stand part is that the provisions relating to stamp duty and the assembly would be best placed in Schedule 9 to the Bill. With the Committee's agreement, this change will be effected by Amendment No. 254 which I will move in our proceedings later today.

Clause 125 negatived.

Clause 126 [Minor and consequential amendments]:

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 248:

Page 62, line 21, leave out ("the Assembly") and insert ("Parts I to IV and this Part").

The noble and learned Lord said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 126, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 9 [Minor and consequential amendments about Assembly]:

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 249:

Page 98, line 40, at end insert—

("The Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 (c. 13)

. The Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 has effect subject to the following amendments.

. In section 3(2) (performance of functions of Parliamentary Commissioner by officers of his or of a Health Service Commissioner), for the words "or may be performed" onwards substitute ", by any member of the staff so authorised of the Welsh Administration Ombudsman or of the Health Service Commissioner for Wales or by any officer so authorised of the Health Service Commissioner for England or of the Health Service Commissioner for Scotland."

. In section 4 (departments etc. subject to investigation), after subsection (3) insert—

"(3A) No entry shall be made if the result of making it would be that the Parliamentary Commissioner could investigate action which can be investigated by the Welsh Administration Ombudsman under Schedule (Welsh Administration Ombudsman) to the Government of Wales Act 1998."

. In section 11(2A) (disclosure of information between Parliamentary Commissioner and a Health Service Commissioner)—

1. (a) after "office as" insert "Welsh Administration Ombudsman or", and
1347
2. (b) for "such a Commissioner" substitute "Welsh Administration Ombudsman or a Health Service Commissioner".

.—(1) Section 11A (consultations between Parliamentary Commissioner and Health Service Commissioners) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1) (duty of consultation)—

1. (a) after "jurisdiction of" insert "the Welsh Administration Ombudsman or of",
2. (b) for "office as that Commissioner" substitute "the office concerned", and
3. (c) after "a complaint under" insert "the Government of Wales Act 1998 or".

(3) In subsection (2) (matters which may be covered by consultation), after "with the" insert "Welsh Administration Ombudsman or a".

(4) In the sidenote, after "and" insert "Welsh Administration Ombudsman or".

. In Schedule 2 (departments etc. subject to investigation by Parliamentary Commissioner)—

1. (a) in note 1A, insert at the end "; and no investigation under this Act shall be conducted in respect of any action in connection with functions of the Environment Agency in relation to Wales (or an area of the sea adjoining either the coast of Wales or an area of the sea forming part of Wales).", and
2. (b) after that note insert—

"1B. In the case of the Forestry Commission no investigation under this Act shall be conducted in respect of any action in connection with functions of the Forestry Commissioners in relation to Wales."").

The noble and learned Lord said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 249A:

Page 98, line 42, leave out from ("In") to ("A") in line 2 on page 99 and insert ("Part II of Schedule 2 to the Pensions (Increase) Act 1971 (official pensions), before paragraph 39 insert—

"National Assembly for Wales

38B.").

The noble and learned Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 249A I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 250A, 254, 256 and 258.

The amendments proposed by the Government to Schedule 9 are technical matters which should not detain us too long.

"Official pensions" within the meaning of the Pensions (Increase) Act 1971 are subject to periodic review and uprating. The purpose of Amendment No. 249A is simply to insert into that Act reference to pensions paid by the assembly to its former members, so that they are "official pensions" and the periodic review and uprating machinery bite on them. An equivalent provision is to be made in the Scotland Bill.

Amendment No. 250A would allow the Auditor General for Wales to be excused from jury service under Part III, Schedule 1 to the Juries Act 1974. That is currently the case with respect to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Amendments Nos. 254 and 258 are technical changes. The stamp duty provisions simply replicate what had been Clause 125. This ensures that the assembly is exempt from stamp duty in relation to a conveyance, transfer or lease. Amendment No. 258 extends the definition of "government department" in the Value Added Tax Act 1994 to include the assembly, thus enabling, among other things, the assembly to be able to reclaim VAT as government departments can.

Finally, Amendment No. 256 amends the Tribunals and Inquiries Act 1992 so that the definition of "Minister" for the purposes of that Act includes the assembly. One of the reasons for this is to ensure that where the assembly makes procedural rules of tribunals it will be required to consult the Council on Tribunals. That does no more than ensure consistency on both sides of Offa's Dyke. I beg to move.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I shall speak briefly to Amendment No. 249A. This seeks to ensure consistency in all the nations of the kingdom. The amendment would enable the national assembly to arrange by subordinate legislation for the variance of national holidays. There was such a power, as no doubt the Minister will tell me, in the Wales Act 1978. There is a similar power for the Scottish parliament and there is a power for Northern Ireland. I now find, from reading the Western Mail this morning, that the amendment is completely and entirely supported by the Conservative Party. Mr. Michael Settle, under the banner headline "Tories call for St David's Day holiday", writes: The Welsh Conservatives are to put at the head of their Assembly elections campaign a commitment to fight to make St David's Day a national holiday in Wales". The report goes on, and I am sure that it is accurate: The campaign for St David's Day to be made a national holiday in Wales appears to be part of a drive within the Welsh Tory Party to help make it a distinctively Welsh party in the eyes of the public in Wales, many of whom have to date regarded the Conservatives as a party of England". So I look forward to the support of the party opposite for my amendment.

Lord Roberts of Conwy

The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is right. I was there on Saturday at Llangollen to hear this impassioned speech calling for St. David's Day to be a national holiday in Wales, as would befit our Saint's day. But I am bound to warn the noble Lord that St. David's Day was recommended as a public holiday in Wales in place of the May Day holiday, for which we can find no justification.

Viscount St. Davids

To add to the list of days which perhaps we should celebrate, I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, has not suggested 18th September.

Lord Elis-Thomas

As St. Ron's day!

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

As the noble Lord indicated, Amendment No. 249B would confer a power to enable the assembly to alter Bank Holidays as they apply to Wales as well as to declare other days as bank holidays in Wales. One effect of the amendment would be to allow the assembly to declare St. David's Day as a bank holiday in Wales. While I recognise that the amendment does not require St. David's Day to be a bank holiday, I suggest to the Committee that we need to consider carefully the wider implications associated with the amendment. Having different bank holidays in Wales and England would not be cost-free for business. The economies of Wales and England are deeply intertwined.

The Government's general policy has been clear. It is to transfer to the assembly the powers currently exercisable by the Secretary of State for Wales. Those do not include powers relating to bank holidays. If the national assembly had views on this issue, it could, of course, debate it and make representations. But we do not agree that the current legislative arrangements for settling bank holidays should be changed.

Lord Simon of Glaisdale

If the noble and learned Lord will allow me, surely the transfer from the Secretary of State to the assembly of the powers that are at present exercised is not exclusive. I certainly understood that other powers are to be transferred.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

I will have to check this, but I think that there are other powers apart from those exercisable by the Secretary of State.

Lord Simon of Glaisdale

Perhaps I may say that I am awaiting an answer from the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn. I said that there was no urgency about it provided I received it before the Report stage. So I am not in any way implying that the noble and learned Lord is to blame.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

I did not take it that the noble and learned Lord was. Whatever the specific powers under the Bill, I think the Government's general policy has repeatedly been made clear; namely, it is in general to transfer to the assembly the powers currently exercisable by the Secretary of State for Wales. Whatever the precise detail of the Bill may say in relation to wider powers, the right to determine how many bank holidays there are and when they are is not one of the powers of the Secretary of State. Therefore, it would be contrary to the general policy to give him those powers.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

If the noble and learned Lord will forgive me, and at the risk of embarrassing the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, he seemed to argue that it would not make good economic sense to have different bank holidays in England and Wales. There are already different bank holidays between Scotland and England and the two economies are fairly closely intertwined, especially in the financial sector. We Scots think that we need another bank holiday on 2nd January, for reasons that I shall not go into, and I notice, looking at my diary, that in Northern Ireland there is a bank holiday—I presume it is a bank holiday—on 12th July, for reasons which are totally obscure to me. But that must be different from the rest of the UK. Therefore, I do not think it is a terribly good argument to make to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, that somehow or other our economies are so intertwined that one cannot conceive of bank holidays on different days.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Speaking as a Scot myself, I am fully aware of the reasons why 2nd January is an additional bank holiday in Scotland. However, I cannot speak for Wales in relation to when and whether it might need separate bank holidays. I believe I have gone through the reasons why we cannot accept the amendment and I invite the noble Lord to withdraw it.

Lord Monson

I am very disappointed and surprised by the Government's reply. I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, not because I live in Wales—I do not—but because I live in an overcrowded United Kingdom as well as being a believer in diversity and common sense. National bank holidays, which are usually fixed for what are statistically the coldest and wettest Mondays in Spring and Summer, are a recipe for overcrowded roads, overcrowded resorts and overcharging. The more bank holidays are diversified to spread the load, so to speak, the better it will be for people throughout the United Kingdom.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I am deeply disappointed on behalf of St. David and also on behalf of the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, who is his representative on earth, no doubt, in this Chamber, that the Government are not prepared to be more flexible on this matter. However, I do look forward to reading the Conservative manifesto on the assembly when they will be nailing their colours to the mast, their colours being of course the flag of St. David—the black background and the yellow cross. I look forward to withdrawing my amendment in order to support at least one part of the Conservative programme for the national assembly—probably the only one.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 249B not moved.]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 250:

Page 99, line 3, at end insert—

("The Local Government Act 1974 (c. 7)

. The Local Government Act 1974 has effect subject to the following amendments.

.—(1) Section 23 (the Commissions for Local Administration) is amended as follows.

(2) After subsection (2) insert—

"(2A) The Welsh Administration Ombudsman shall be a member of the Commission for Local Administration in Wales (so that, where the offices of Parliamentary Commissioner and Welsh Administration Ombudsman are held by different persons, the Commission for Local Administration in Wales shall consist of at least three commissioners)."

(3) In subsection (3) (meaning of "Local Commissioner"), after "other than the Parliamentary Commissioner" insert ", the Welsh Administration Ombudsman".

(4) In subsection (12) (reports by the Commissions), after "government departments" insert "or the National Assembly for Wales".

. In section 26(6)(b) (no investigation where person aggrieved has right of appeal to Minister of the Crown), after "Minister of the Crown" insert "or the National Assembly for Wales".

. In section 27(1) (authorities not entitled to make a complaint)—

1. (a) in paragraph (a), after "government" insert "(including the National Assembly for Wales)", and
2. (b) in paragraph (b), after "department" insert "or by the National Assembly for Wales" and after "Parliament" insert "or the National Assembly for Wales".

.—(1) Section 29 (provisions about investigations) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (3) (disclosure to Local Commissioner of communications between local authorities and government departments), after "any Government department" insert "or the National Assembly for Wales".

(3) In subsection (5) (section does not affect restrictions on disclosure of information), before "or" at the end of paragraph (a) insert— (aa) the restriction, imposed by paragraph 24(1) of Schedule (Welsh Administration Ombudsman) to the Government of Wales Act 1998, on the disclosure of information by the Welsh Administration Ombudsman or members of his staff;".

. In section 32(5) (inclusion in Local Commissioner's report of information derived from government communications disclosed under section 29(3))—

1. (a) after "department", in the first place, insert "or the National Assembly for Wales",
2. (b) after "department", in the second place, insert "or a member of the Assembly's staff', and
3. (c) after "department", in the third place, insert "or the Assembly".

.—(1) Section 33 (consultation with other Commissioners) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1) (duty to consult), before "or" at the end of paragraph (a) insert— (aa) by the Welsh Administration Ombudsman, in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 1998,",. and, in the words following paragraph (b), after "Commissioner" insert "or the Ombudsman" and after "under the Act of 1967" insert ", under the Government of Wales Act 1998".

(3) In subsection (2) (matters which may be covered by consultation)—

1. (a) after "the Parliamentary Commissioner" insert ", the Welsh Administration Ombudsman", and
2. (b) after "that Commissioner" insert "or the Ombudsman".

(4) In subsection (5) (confidentiality)—

1. (a) after "Act of 1993," insert "in paragraph 24(1) of Schedule (Welsh Administration Ombudsman) to the Government of Wales Act 1998", and
2. (b) omit "by any of the Commissioners mentioned in this section, or by any of their officers,".").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 250A:

Page 99, line 8, at end insert—

("The Auditor General for Wales."").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 251:

Page 99, line 13, at end insert (", and Welsh Administration Ombudsman."").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendments Nos. 252 and 253:

Page 99, line 20, at end insert—

("The Mental Health Act 1983 (c. 20)

. The Mental Health Act 1983 has effect subject to the following amendment.

. In section 134(3)(c) (no power to withhold correspondence between patients and ombudsmen), after "Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration," insert "the Welsh Administration Ombudsman,".").

Page 99, line 20, at end insert—

("The Mental Health Act 1983 (c. 20)

. In section 141 of the Mental Health Act 1983 (members of House of Commons suffering from mental illness), at the end insert—

"(9) This section also has effect in relation to members of the National Assembly for Wales but as if—

1. (a) references to the House of Commons were to the Assembly and references to the Speaker were to the presiding officer, and
2. (b) in subsection (7), for "defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament" there were substituted "paid by the National Assembly for Wales"."

The Insolvency Act 1986 (c. 45)

. In section 427 of the Insolvency Act 1986 (members of House of Commons adjudged bankrupt etc.), before subsection (7) insert—

"(6B) Subsections (4) to (6) have effect in relation to a member of the National Assembly for Wales but as if—

1. (a) references to the House of Commons were to the Assembly and references to the Speaker were to the presiding officer, and
2. (b) in subsection (4), for "under this section" there were substituted "under section 12(2) of the Government of Wales Act 1998 by virtue of this section"."").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 254:

Page 99, line 20, at end insert—

("The Finance Act 1987 (c. 16)

. In section 55(1) of the Finance Act 1987 (Crown exemption from stamp duty), after "Her Majesty's Treasury," insert "or to the National Assembly for Wales,".").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 254A:

Page 99, line 38, at end insert—

("The Official Secrets Act 1989 (c. 6)

. In section 12(2) of the Official Secrets Act 1989 (which defines a "government contractor" as including a person who provides goods or services for the purposes of a Minister), before "or" at the end of paragraph (a) insert— (aa) for the purposes of the National Assembly for Wales;".").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 255:

Page 99, line 38, at end insert—

("The Finance Act 1989 (c.26)

.—(1) Section 182 of the Finance Act 1989 (restrictions on disclosure of information about taxpayers) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (4)(a) (offence for Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration and others to disclose information about taxpayers), after sub-paragraph (ii) insert—

1. "(iii) of the Auditor General for Wales and any member of his staff, or
2. (iv) of the Welsh Administration Ombudsman and any member of his staff,".

(3) In subsection (6) (authorised disclosures), in the words after paragraph (e), for "or the Parliamentary Commissioner," substitute ", the Parliamentary Commissioner, the Auditor General for Wales or the Welsh Administration Ombudsman,".

The Social Security Administration Act 1992 (c.5)

. In section 123(8) of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 (auditors and investigators of complaints who may not disclose social security information)—

• (a) after paragraph (b) insert—
• "(ba) the Auditor General for Wales and any member of his staff;", and.
• (b) after paragraph (hc) insert—
• "(hd) the Welsh Administration Ombudsman and any member of his staff;".").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 256:

Page 99, line 38, at end insert—

("The Tribunals and Inquiries Act 1992 (c.53)

. In section 16(1) of the Tribunals and Inquiries Act 1992 (interpretation), in the definition of "Minister", after "includes" insert "the National Assembly for Wales and".").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendments Nos. 257 to 259:

Page 100, leave out lines 3 to 28.

Page 100, line 28, at end insert—

("The Value Added Tax Act 1994 (c.23)

. In section 41(6) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 (meaning of government department), before "a Northern Ireland department," insert ", the National Assembly for Wales,".").

Page 100, line 28, at end insert—

("The Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 (c.40)

. In section 79(1) of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 (interpretation of Part II), in the definition of "office-holder"—

1. (a) after "officer of either House of Parliament," insert "the Auditor General for Wales," and
2. (b) after "the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration" insert ", the Welsh Administration Ombudsman".").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Schedule 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 127 [Extension of functions]:

Lord Elis-Thomas moved Amendment No. 259A:

Page 62, line 29, at end insert— ("( ) for "may" substitute "shall",").

The noble Lord said: The purpose of this group of amendments is to strengthen the commitment of the Welsh Development Agency to sustainable development. No doubt the Government will argue that in view of our earlier debates these particular amendments are redundant. However, I wish to emphasise that the wording of my Amendment No. 259B is, to promote environmentally sound and sustainable development in the full range of its activities which relate to the WDA. It is drawn from the constitution and mission statement of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Because it is part of that bank's activities, I am certain that it should be similarly acceptable to the WDA. I now see that in the objectives and principles of the enlarged WDA, which the chairman, David Rowe-Beddowe, so kindly sent us, it is now committed to deliver a more strategic approach to sustainable development. Therefore, I suggest to the Government that my amendments are not only acceptable, but they would enhance the WDA in pursuing these objectives. I beg to move.

Lord Roberts of Conwy

We have not as yet had the opportunity to discuss the new Welsh Development Agency. The amendments that have just been spoken to would seem to be offering as good an opportunity as we are likely to get either with the next set of amendments or on clause stand part.

We are grateful for the assurance that we have had from the chairman of the existing Welsh Development Agency that sustainable development is close to its heart. As he is also the chairman of the Development Board for Rural Wales, I am sure that the commitment extends to that board also. The new development agency, with its all-Wales brief, was in a sense anticipated when the chairman of the WDA was asked to take over the chairmanship of the Development Board for Rural Wales and to bring the two bodies closer together. That he has done and I believe that Wales owes a debt of gratitude to the chairman, Mr. David Rowe-Beddowe, not just for this achievement but for other improvements that he has brought to the successful working of these two organisations in all the spheres in which they are involved.

There is no doubt that mid-Wales, which was the area primarily covered by the Development Board for Rural Wales, had very special problems and suffered from the constant haemorrhage of de-population for many years. That was as attributable to social conditions as to economic conditions. That is why the Development Board for Rural Wales had a social as well as an economic remit which turned out to be useful to the Government in Wales as a whole. Therefore, I welcome the fact that the Bill adds social development to the new WDA's remit. It is part of its inheritance from the Development Board for Rural Wales which is to be merged with the new body. Many will regret the passing of the Development Board for Rural Wales. It has served mid-Wales well. Unemployment rates remained comparatively low in mid-Wales towns at times of recession when they were high elsewhere.

The Welsh Development Agency has always had a rural remit outside the area of the Development Board for Rural Wales and the industrial areas of south and north-east Wales. It actively pursued improvement schemes of benefit to tourist areas and the general environment. But that work was inevitably overshadowed in the public mind by the agency's success in attracting inward investment and by its massive effort in the land reclamation field. At one stage it had the largest reclamation programme of its kind in Europe. That work is now drawing to an end and it makes sense to combine the land authority for Wales with the WDA because both have similar and complementary expertise in restoring land to commercial use.

There is another change in this Bill to the remit of the WDA and that is the change of function from promoting industrial efficiency to promoting efficiency in business. I am sure that there is more to the change than meets the eye. I shall be grateful if the Minister can spell that out in his reply. Does it mean that the agency is not confined to assisting industrial and manufacturing businesses and, if so, is it anticipated that there might be a matching change in industrial development grants—in other words, that the scope for such grants might be widened?

Incidentally, what is to happen to the industry department of the Welsh Office which managed the award of grants? I note that the amendment also refers to exports from Wales and proposes that the new agency should take part in their promotion. In fact, there is a special department or section of the Welsh Office which already promotes exports by small and medium-sized companies.

The new agency will be very large indeed, not only in size but in its scope. I am sure that that will create problems. The agency has already divided itself on a regional and functional basis and it appears to be ready to manage its new tasks.

However, one is bound to utter a word or two of warning. I doubt whether in future we can expect the same strong flow of inward investment as we have experienced in the past—and for a variety of reasons: Far Eastern sources of investment are not as buoyant as they were and other markets are opening up, notably in Eastern Europe, which may tempt manufacturing investors to establish themselves there rather than here. Of course, one would like to see more inward investors going to the west of Wales, but ultimately the decision is theirs. Proximity to the strategic road network and an ample supply of appropriate labour are important to such investors. The western-most parts of Wales are not always well endowed in those respects.

As the amendments under discussion, and others, indicate, there will be many demands placed upon the new Welsh Development Agency, and high expectations of it. However, we must never forget that its main function is to further the development of the Welsh economy and to promote business so that our people have work and can prosper. There must not be too many distractions from those key tasks. I am sure that we are right to emphasise that, especially as we face an enormous problem in the agricultural industry, upon which rural life is so dependent. Who knows, we may well face problems in the industrial areas also in the not-too-distant future. Therefore, I say once again that the development agency must concentrate on its main task, which is the economic development of Wales.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

I do not think that anybody underestimates the importance of the Welsh Development Agency or its increasing importance once the assembly is up and running. In our amendments to its purposes, we seek only to focus on that.

Amendment No. 259A seems to be an attempt to strengthen the legislative requirement upon the WDA to exercise its functions in pursuance of the purposes listed in Section 1(2) of the Welsh Development Agency Act. If that is the intention, perhaps I may assure the noble Lord that it is unnecessary, since the legislation already provides that the WDA can exercise its functions only for the purposes set out in that Act.

Acceptance of the first amendment in this group would have a material effect on the modus operandi of the agency, which could be to the detriment of Wales. The substitution of "shall" for "may" in Section 1(2) of the Welsh Development Agency Act would place a statutory duty upon the agency to ensure that each function it exercised satisfied each and every one of the purposes listed in that section. That would surely place an unrealistic limitation upon the activities of the agency and deny it the competence to deliver the kind of all-Wales economic, social and environmental development that the Government have promised.

The Government have already demonstrated their commitment to placing the environment at the heart of policy-making for Wales. As we have already discussed, the national assembly will itself be required to prepare a scheme setting out how sustainable development will be achieved in Wales: whether by itself or via the public bodies, including the WDA, which it will fund and direct.

The WDA already has as a purpose the improvement of the environment in Wales and as a function the development and redevelopment of the environment. In addition, it has the function of improving the appearance of derelict land. I would assert that the agency's own legislation, together with the relationship it will have with the assembly, will more than adequately provide for it to have a view to sustainable development in its activities and to be able to account for its activities in this area. The Government's view is therefore that Amendment No. 259B is unnecessary.

With respect to Amendment No. 259C, the Bill clearly establishes the powers of the agency to play a full and effective role in economic and social development in all parts of Wales by transferring to it the social development powers of the Development Board for Rural Wales. Obviously, the way in which these powers are exercised will be subject to the wishes and guidance of the assembly, but I submit to the noble Lord that they would substantially achieve his objectives without the need for Amendment No. 259C.

Amendment No. 259D would make it a function of the agency to promote exports from Wales. It is an existing purpose of the agency to promote efficiency in business and international competitiveness in Wales, and the agency has an existing function to, promote or assist the establishment, growth, modernisation or development of', businesses. At the moment, the Welsh Office is the main provider in Wales of export services and advice. Other bodies, such as the chambers of commerce, the training and enterprise councils and the Mid Wales Export Association, have, together with the WDA, been engaged with the Welsh Office in a review of how export services for small and medium enterprises in Wales might be better co-ordinated. In time, the assembly might wish to make its own arrangements for the provision of export services, but at the moment the agency is fully empowered to participate in the provision of export services.

The Bill as drafted preserves the wide-ranging permissive powers that the agency has. Control over which of the powers are exercised, and how they are exercised, must rest firmly in the hands of the assembly. Only in that way can we deliver the democratic accountability of public bodies that is fundamental to better government in Wales.

I appreciate that these amendments may largely be an attempt by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, to probe the future powers and role of the WDA. I hope that my answers indicate that we are in considerable sympathy with many of his aims.

Before concluding, perhaps I may deal with the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, which was: why change the duty on the Welsh Development Agency from one with respect to "industry" to one with respect to "business"? There is nothing sinister in this. We believe that the word "business" better reflects the diverse nature of the modern Welsh economy. The change will not affect the range of powers available to the Welsh Development Agency.

I hope that I have given the noble Lords satisfactory assurances in each case and I therefore invite the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, to withdraw the amendment.

5.45 p.m.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I am grateful to the Minister for those assurances. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, for reminding us of the activities not only of the WDA but also of the Development Board for Rural Wales, from the work of which I benefited greatly when I was the Member of Parliament for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy. As we see the DBRW being wound up and incorporated into a strengthened WDA, I pay tribute to all who have been associated with it.

I am particularly grateful for the assurances about the review of export services. We need to consider the current function of the Welsh Office in this regard and whether that function would be better placed with the agency, as proposed in my amendment or whether other arrangements might be established in due course. I welcome the comments about the review.

Finally, I should have declared an interest as the part-time chairman of Sgrin, which is in receipt of funding from the WDA as part of its media development work. We shall be looking to the WDA to be an even more flexible and an even stronger body in the future in relation to the assembly than it has been in the past. We shall all be concerned about the role of the agency and its ability to function as flexibly as is required by the changing economic circumstances of all regions of Wales.

I wish the agency well, together with all its staff who—it is important to record this—have gone through a rapid and difficult reorganisation while maintaining the morale and effectiveness of the agency's service delivery. Without naming names, I pay tribute to all who have been responsible for ensuring that. Following the specific assurances that I have received, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 259B to 260 not moved.]

Clause 127 agreed to.

Lord Elis-Thomas moved Amendment No. 260A:

After Clause 127, insert the following new clause—

REPORT BY AGENCY TO ASSEMBLY

(" . At the end of each financial year, the Welsh Development Agency shall provide a report to the Assembly containing information on—

1. (a) the geographical distribution of its expenditure in different parts of Wales,
2. (b) the arrangements it has made to assist the Assembly in carrying out its responsibilities under section 120, and
3. (c) the arrangements it has made to assist the Assembly in carrying out its responsibilities under section 121.").

The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 260A seeks to strengthen the reporting arrangements between the assembly and the development agency and the method by which the agency reports to the assembly. In particular, the amendment is related to the activity of the agency in promoting equality of opportunity and sustainable development. I hope that the Government will be able to assure me that it is their intention under the Bill that the agency should clearly operate to those objectives. I was pleased to note in that context—I refer in particular to paragraph (a) which refers to the geographical distribution of expenditure in different parts of Wales—that among the quoted objectives and principles of the enlarged WDA the building of strong regions is a very important aspect.

I do not know whether the Government are yet in a position to indicate that they now accept the argument that the regional committee structure of the assembly discussed earlier in Committee will approximate to the regions of the development agency. That would provide an opportunity for direct reporting as between the regions of Wales or the regional committees of the assembly and the work of the agency. It would be even more helpful if the Government could provide that reassurance at this stage.

Therefore, the intention of this amendment is to strengthen the link between the agency and the assembly and ensure that that happens by means of a formal reporting mechanism. The last thing that we want—I say this before the Front Bench opposite does so—is day-to-day political interference in the work of the agency by assembly members. We want to have the setting of broad objectives and the strengthening of reporting and accountability which have generally functioned well in the past, although not always. I beg to move.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

As I understand the purpose of this amendment which seeks to insert a new clause, it is to provide that the Welsh Development Agency in its report should deal with certain specified pieces of information, including the geographical distribution of its expenditure in different parts of Wales and the arrangements that it has made to assist the assembly in carrying out its responsibilities under Clauses 120 and 121. Clause 120 relates to sustainable development and Clause 121 is concerned with equality of opportunity.

I sympathise with the close concern shown by the noble Lord in these matters. Although I cannot go all the way with him, I believe that he is pushing at an open door. Schedule 3 to the Welsh Development Agency Act 1975 requires the agency to report annually on its activities to the Secretary of State. In addition, the agency is required by paragraph 8(5) of that schedule to provide the Secretary of State with such information relating to its activities or proposed activities as he may from time to time require.

After its establishment the agency will report to the assembly. The assembly will have the same powers as the Secretary of State. The assembly will no doubt closely review the operation of the WDA on an annual basis. We have recently debated Clauses 120 and 121 of the Bill which impose duties on the assembly with regard to sustainable development and equal opportunities. The assembly will in turn determine the role of those public bodies it will fund and direct in discharging its duties under those clauses. That could readily include a requirement on the WDA to report on the matters indicated in this amendment. The assembly will have power to ask for the specific information that the noble Lord wishes to be included in the clause. Under the powers in the 1975 Act it could also require the agency to provide a geographical breakdown of its activities. Therefore, the assembly can make the demands that the noble Lord wishes it to make, but it is not for the Bill to prescribe it but for the assembly to decide. We believe that in neither case is there a need for further provisions in this Bill. I appreciate that once again the noble Lord by this amendment seeks to probe. I hope that I have reassured him sufficiently for him not to seek to press these matters further.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I am very grateful to the Minister for his reassurance which, together with his earlier reassurance in the context of this debate, enables me to signal quite clearly that the Welsh Development Agency will have a key role in carrying out these objectives. On those grounds, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 128 agreed to.

Schedule 10 [Welsh Development Agency: land provisions]:

Baroness Anelay of St. Johns moved Amendment No. 260B:

Page 104, line 14, after ("is") insert ("a public right of way, or is").

The noble Baroness said: I beg to move Amendment No. 260B and speak also to Amendment No. 260C which is grouped with it. The issues raised by these amendments, and by Amendments Nos. 261A and 262ZA to which I shall refer later, were drawn to my attention by the Open Spaces Society. A week or so ago that body was preparing amendments for the Regional Development Agencies Bill. It was as a result of its research in relation to that Bill that the society recognised certain deficiencies in this Bill. I am grateful to that society for bringing these matters to my attention so that I am able to raise them today.

The Open Spaces Society is concerned with the protection and enhancement of commons, public spaces and public rights of way in both town and countryside. These amendments reflect that concern. They intend to clarify or safeguard points of doubt. I accept that more expert drafting than mine may be desirable, but at this stage these are intended to be probing amendments. I hope that at Report stage the Government will be prepared to use them as a basis for their own amendments. I am also aware that the Government have had good prior notice of these amendments. The Open Spaces Society very properly sent on 1st June a copy of the amendments and its arguments to the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn.

Amendment No. 260B attempts to remove an ambiguity in the Bill. Neither the Welsh Development Agency Act 1975 nor this Bill appears to contain special provisions for the extinguishment or diversion of highways or public rights of way. It is assumed that the agency must rely on the normal provisions of the Highways Act 1980 or the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. If that is the case it is desirable that it should be made unambiguous, because the standard procedures ensure that certain voluntary bodies are, in the appropriate regulations, given the right to be notified of any such proposals to enable them to make representations. I understand that the relevant bodies covering Wales are: the Auto-Cycle Union, British Horse Society, Byways and Bridleways Trust, Cyclists' Touring Club, Open Spaces Society, Ramblers' Association and Welsh Trail Riders' Association.

I speak now to Amendment No. 260C which is grouped with this amendment. This amendment also refers to the operation of Schedule 10. Schedule 10 inserts a new Section 21A into the 1975 Act and subsection (2)(b) of that enables the Welsh Development Agency to acquire land to be given in exchange for land forming part of a common, open space or fuel or field garden allotment, but it does not compel such an exchange. Section 19(1) of the Acquisition of Land Act 1981 requires the Secretary of State to certify, for compulsory purchases, that except in minor cases he is satisfied that there will be given in exchange for such land other land not less in area and equally advantageous to the public and commoners, or that the land is being acquired to secure its preservation or improve its management. If the Secretary of State is unable so to certify, the order must be subject to special parliamentary procedure and approved by both Houses of Parliament. It is important that these provisions apply if the agency is able to acquire open space and other such land by agreement. I hope that these will be viewed in the manner in which they are intended—as helpful amendments. I beg to move.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

I appreciate the spirit in which these amendments are offered. The amendments seek to ascertain the position in relation to public rights of way and open spaces. I do not believe that either amendment is necessary. I deal first with Amendment No. 260B. That amendment is intended to protect public rights of way. The protection sought by the noble Baroness is already provided by other legislation, in particular the Highways Acts.

The provisions of the new Schedule 4 to the Welsh Development Agency Act 1975 are intended to provide the agency with the identical powers which for the past two decades have been enjoyed by the Land Authority for Wales without any question of abuse arising from the use of such powers. It is entirely consistent with the Government's intention to create the "new" WDA that the agency inherit these powers. I would reassure the noble Baroness that the agency would not seek to make use of its compulsory purchase powers were an alternative solution available. Indeed, the Act provides that any parties suffering loss as a result of the extinguishment of a public right of way will be entitled to compensation by the agency.

I hope that in the light of those assurances, the noble Baroness will feel satisfied in relation to the issue of public rights of way to which Amendment No. 260B relates.

Amendment No. 260C relates to the provision that land acquired by the agency must be used in accordance with planning permission where that land forms part of a common, open space or a fuel or field garden allotment. For perhaps understandable reasons, the noble Baroness is seeking to single out the Welsh Development Agency for particularly stringent treatment here, since her amendment would require the agency to comply with Section 19 of the Acquisition of Land Act 1981 whether or not the land in question had been acquired compulsorily. As matters stand presently, only land acquired compulsorily is subject to Section 19 of the 1981 Act. Where common land is acquired compulsorily by the agency, the provisions of Section 19 will automatically apply, and will continue to apply.

To extend Section 19, as is proposed in the noble Baroness's amendment, to land acquired by agreement would inhibit the freedom of a landowner to sell land for development which would accord with the needs identified in the adopted local plan. It would be inappropriate to extend to land sold by agreement the legislation which applies only to compulsory purchase. This is no disrespect to the noble Baroness, but she has given no reasons why this extension of the law should be applied. In view of that explanation, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

Before the noble Baroness replies, perhaps I may speak to a government amendment in this group, Amendment No. 261. It is of a technical nature relating to the Welsh Development Agency's compulsory acquisition powers.

As currently drafted, paragraph 16 of Schedule 10 provides that the security of tenure provisions in the Rent Act 1977 shall not prevent the agency from acquiring a house under the Acquisition of Land Act 1981. The Rent (Agriculture) Act 1976 and the Housing Act 1988 also provide for security of tenure and the amendment proposes that that security should not prevent the agency from obtaining possession of the property. However, the amendment does not affect rights to compensation which exist under the Compulsory Purchase Act 1965. Finally, the amendment ensures consistency with the Regional Development Agencies Bill. At an appropriate moment I shall formally move the amendment.

6 p.m.

Baroness Anelay of St. Johns

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the assurances he gave on public rights of way. On first hearing, I believe that they meet my objection. I shall read Hansard carefully on the matter. With regard to acquisition of land by agreement and the points he puts regarding Amendment No. 260C, I shall not move that amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 260C not moved.]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 261:

Page 110, line 38, leave out ("Act 1977") and insert (" (Agriculture) Act 1976, the Rent Act 1977 or the Housing Act 1988").

The noble and learned Lord said: I have just spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 10, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 129 agreed to.

Schedule 11 [Welsh Development Agency: other amendments]:

Baroness Anelay of St. Johns moved Amendment No. 261A:

Page 113, line 10, at end insert—

("(1A) In subsection (4) (duty of Agency to have regard to requirements of agriculture and efficient land management), after "regard to" insert—

1. "(a) the conservation and enhancement of natural beauty and the conservation of flora, fauna, and geological or physiological features of special interest;
2. (b) the desirability of protecting and conserving buildings, sites and objects of archaeological or historic interest and enabling the public to visit and inspect them:
3. (c) any effect proposals would have on the beauty or amenity of any urban or rural area or on any such flora, fauna, features, buildings, sites or objects; and
4. (d)".").

The noble Baroness said: With the permission of the Committee, I speak also to Amendment No. 262ZA which is grouped with it. These are in the nature of probing amendments.

Amendment No. 261 A inserts a new subsection into Schedule 11 in order to strengthen the recognition of the importance of the environment. In a number of Acts in recent years, bodies which have been given statutory powers have also been required to think positively about conservation. The Open Spaces Society tells me it appreciates that Sections 1(2)(d) and (3)(h) and (i) of the Welsh Development Agency Act 1975 already recognise the importance of the environment, but it is considered that they need strengthening. The proposed amendment is a simplified version of Section 3 of the Water Industry Act 1991. It has been put in Section 1(4) before the existing reference to agriculture for ease of drafting, not to imply an order of importance. As the Committee will appreciate, I would not undertake to table amendments which undermine the importance of agriculture. I believe that the amendment would not do so.

Amendment No. 262ZA amends the list of definitions of those activities which may be included within the definition of "business" in Schedule 11, paragraph 10(2). It adds the term "recreational" to the list in order to make it clear that the word "business" may include a recreational activity, perhaps that organised by a charity. I beg to move.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Amendment No. 261A seeks to make it a duty of the agency to have regard to the conservation and enhancement of natural beauty and the conservation of the flora and fauna of Wales, as well as to have regard to the protection and conservation of buildings and sites of archaeological or historic interest.

I am sure the Committee is aware of the sterling work which the Countryside Council for Wales already does with respect to protecting the Welsh natural environment, and that of Cadw in preserving ancient and historical monuments in Wales. I trust that the noble Baroness does not suggest abolishing these bodies or duplicating their functions by placing these further duties on the WDA.

If the noble Baroness is concerned that the WDA's economic development work might damage the natural environment or built heritage of Wales, I am happy to set her mind at rest. The WDA is, and will remain, fully subject to environmental and planning law, including that relating to the preservation of sensitive environmental sites and historic building. Furthermore, it will be open to the assembly, in directing the WDA, to ensure that it operates in a way which is sensitive to these issues while not jeopardising its key task of regenerating the Welsh economy.

The noble Baroness's amendment, Amendment No. 262ZA, seeks to include "recreational activities" among those included in the definition of "business" in the WDA Act. I had rather misunderstood the basis of the noble Baroness's amendment. I had thought that the concern was primarily for the tourism and leisure industry in Wales. However, from what the noble Baroness said in moving the amendment, it would appear that she is concerned about recreational activities carried on by the charitable or voluntary sector in Wales. The main purpose of the WDA is to regenerate the Welsh economy. The matters to which she refers are probably already included in relation to business. I shall contemplate the issue further and bring it to the attention of those who have more significance in this matter than myself. However, I believe that it would be inappropriate for the matters to be dealt with by the Welsh Development Agency.

Having pointed out that there is no need for these further duties, or that they are inappropriate, I invite the noble Baroness either to withdraw or not to move the amendment.

Lord Renton

I have not spoken so far on this Bill, for which noble Lords perhaps are thankful. However, this amendment appeals very much to me, and I felt that I should lend my support to it.

Despite what the noble and learned Lord has already said about the various bodies responsible for protecting the environment of Wales, will he confirm that the elected representatives of the assembly of Wales will also have responsibilities even if this amendment is not accepted?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

I do not follow the noble Lord's question. They will certainly have responsibilities, but he has not asked in relation to what. I confirm that they will have responsibilities imposed on them by the Bill—and they will be very substantial responsibilities in relation to the running and governing of Wales—but I cannot go beyond that.

Baroness Anelay of St. Johns

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Solicitor-General for his assurances in regard to Amendment No. 261A. I certainly have no intention at all of abolishing either the Countryside Council or Cadw, both of which do excellent work. In the light of the noble and learned Lord's assurances I beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 261A.

As to Amendment No. 262ZA, there may be some misunderstanding as to why I wish to move the amendment. I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for perhaps agreeing that we might come back to it at another stage. I will take further advice on it. I feel that the particular concerns of the Open Spaces Society with regard to Amendment No. 262ZA may not have been met by the noble and learned Lord's remarks so far. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 261A.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 262 and 262ZA not moved.]

Schedule 11 agreed to.

Clause 130 agreed to.

Schedule 12 agreed to.

Clauses 131 and 132 agreed to.

Clause 133 [Winding-down]:

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 262A:

Page 64, line 26, leave out ("conferred or imposed on that Agency") and insert ("imposed on that Agency, or conferred on the Secretary of State,").

The noble and learned Lord said: I beg to move Amendment Nos. 262A and I shall also speak to Amendment No. 262B. These are drafting amendments. First, they remove the references in Clauses 133 and 139 to functions "conferred" on the Development Board for Rural Wales and Land Authority for Wales. This is superfluous. Only the term "imposed" is needed.

Secondly, the amendments change the wording of these clauses to reflect that used in similar provisions in Clause 143. The Secretary of State will need the assistance of the Development Board for Rural Wales and the Land Authority to carry out functions conferred on him by Clauses 133 and 139. Inserting the words as printed would require each body to provide it. I beg to move Amendment No. 262A.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 133, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 134 to 138 agreed to.

6.15 p.m.

Clause 139 [Winding-Down]:

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 262B:

Page 67, line 12, leave out ("conferred or imposed on that Agency") and insert ("imposed on that Agency, or conferred on the Secretary of State,").

The noble and learned Lord said: I have just spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 139, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 140 agreed to.

On Question, Whether Clause 141 shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Roberts of Conwy

There has been very little parliamentary discussion of the housing issues raised by the transfer of functions of Tai Cymru Housing For Wales to the Secretary of State under Clause 141. All we know is that this body, which had a budget of nearly £63 million in 1997–98, is being absorbed into the Welsh Office which will perform its functions for the time being.

As to the long-term future of these functions, there is very little light cast in the Bill although housing is listed in Schedule 2 among the 18 fields in which functions are to be transferred by order to the assembly.

Paragraph 3.31 of the White Paper, A Voice for Wales, states: the restructuring of Tai Cymru's responsibilities will give local authorities a significantly enhanced role in co-ordinating the delivery of local housing strategies matched to the needs of their areas. They will also have the power in appropriate circumstances to provide new housing themselves". It seems that the Government have not yet quite decided how housing responsibilities are to be divided. It seems that there is to be some reallocation of duties to local authorities. Will the Minister give some indication of the likely course of events? Housing is traditionally a very important subject in Wales, as elsewhere. It would be remiss of us simply to pass these functions back to the Welsh Office without any comment at all in Parliament.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

There is not a specific amendment relating to Clause 141. I understand the concerns that have been expressed and I will undertake to write further to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy.

Clause 141 agreed to.

Schedule 13 agreed to.

Clause 142 [Transitional provisions]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 263:

Page 69, line 18, after first ("or") insert ("by Housing for Wales or the Housing Corporation for the purpose of or in connection with").

The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 263 and 264 are technical amendments. They are required to correct an omission from the Bill in relation to the functioning of the Housing for Wales' lending responsibilities when they are transferred to the Secretary of State under Clause 141(2).

Housing for Wales is a qualifying lender under Section 376(4) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988. It can give mortgage interest relief at source in respect of some 20 mortgages and loans. Some of the loans have been made by Housing for Wales and we have provided for those in the Bill. Other loans inherited by the Secretary of State were made by the predecessor authority, the Housing Corporation in Wales.

Without these changes the Secretary of State would be unable to give mortgage interest relief at source. That would be undesirable and these amendments simply tidy up the situation. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 264:

Page 69, line 24, leave out from ("Wales") to end of line 26 and insert ("and are made or commenced before its functions are transferred, and (b) for Housing for Wales or the Housing Corporation in any instruments, contracts or legal proceedings which relate to any property, rights or liabilities transferred by section 141(2) and are so made or commenced.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 142, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 143 and 144 agreed to.

Clause 145 [Accounts, audit and reports]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 265:

Page 72, line 4, after ("Wales,") insert ("the Welsh Administration Ombudsman, the Health Service Commissioner for Wales,").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 145, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 14 agreed to.

Clause 146 [Examinations into use of resources]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 265A:

Page 72, line 30, at end insert—

("( ) The Comptroller and Auditor General shall—

1. (a) consult the Auditor General for Wales, and
2. (b) take into account any relevant work done or being done by the Auditor General for Wales,

before he carries out an examination under section 6 or 7 of the National Audit Act 1983 (economy etc. examinations) in respect of a body or office specified in Schedule 14.").

The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment to ensure consistency. It will bring Clause 146 into line with comparable provisions elsewhere in Clause 103 and Schedules 5 and 6 where the Comptroller and Auditor General is required to consult. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 146, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 147 [Transfer etc. of functions of Comptroller and Auditor General]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 266: Page 72, line 39, leave out from ("Wales") to end of line 40 and insert (", Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Schools in Wales, the Welsh Administration Ombudsman, the Health Service Commissioner for Wales, a county council, a county borough council or a"). On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 147, as amended, agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 266A:

After Clause 147, insert the following new clause—

ENVIRONMENT AGENCY

(.—(1) The Secretary of State may by order—

1. (a) make provision for any function of the Comptroller and Auditor General relating to the Environment Agency to become a function also of the Auditor General for Wales 1368 so far as it relates to any of the Agency's Welsh functions or to any funding provided to the Agency by the Assembly, or
2. (b) make provision about reports to the Assembly by the Environment Agency on the Agency's activities in exercise of its Welsh functions (including provision for the giving of directions by the Assembly about such reports).

(2) An order under subsection (1) may contain any appropriate consequential, incidental, supplementary or transitional provisions or savings (including provisions in the form of amendments or repeals of enactments).

(3) An Order in Council under section 22 may include any provision that may be included in an order under subsection (1).

(4) In this section references to the Environment Agency's Welsh functions are to its functions so far as exercisable in relation to—

1. (a) Wales,
2. (b) an area of the sea adjoining either the coast of Wales or an area of the sea forming part of Wales, or
3. (c) a cross-border body, or an English border area, in relation to which environmental functions of the Assembly are exercisable;

and "environmental functions of the Assembly" means functions of the Assembly in a field in which the Environment Agency also has functions.").

The noble Lord said: In this group are Amendments Nos. 266A, 270A and 270B. Their purpose is to allow the Secretary of State by order to provide that the Auditor General for Wales may have the same functions as the Comptroller and Auditor General as regards the functions of the Environment Agency in relation to Wales and to permit the Auditor General for Wales to undertake value-for-money exercises in relation to those functions.

At present, the Auditor General has powers only in respect of public bodies whose functions relate exclusively to Wales or to a part of it. The Comptroller and Auditor General will not lose any functions by virtue of these amendments. Under the reporting process, the Environment Agency will continue to produce a single set of accounts covering England and Wales which will be laid before Parliament. As is the present practice, the Comptroller and Auditor General will be entitled to inspect those accounts under Section 46 of the Environment Act 1995. The accounts will include a set of figures covering Welsh activities. It will be presented to the assembly, so it is appropriate that the Auditor General shall be able to inspect them. Under the order-making power of the new clause, the Environment Agency, which is an England and Wales body, will be required to make a report to the assembly about the exercise of its Welsh functions. These are necessary provisions. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clauses 148 to 150 agreed to.

Lord Moran moved Amendment No. 267:

Before Clause 151, insert the following new clause—

REVIEW AND AMENDMENT OF THIS ACT

(" .—(1) Subject to subsection (2), the Secretary of State—

1. (a) shall, if the Assembly passes a motion to that effect; and
2. (b) may, in any event,

conduct a review of the operation of some or all of the provisions of this Act.

(2) A review under subsection (1) above shall not include—

1. (a) any provision of Part I or III or sections 108 to 110, 152, 153, 155, 156, 158 or 159; or
2. (b) any provision less than two years after it has come into force.

(3) In conducting a review under this section, the Secretary of State shall—

1. (a) publish an announcement of the review, setting out—
1. (i) which provisions of this Act are included within the scope of the review, and
2. (ii) the period, which must be of at least two months' duration, within which interested parties may make representations to him on the outcome of the review;
2. (b) consult such persons and bodies as he thinks appropriate; and
3. (c) take account of any representations made to him by—
1. (i) the Assembly, or any committee of the Assembly,
2. (ii) any of the Welsh public bodies mentioned in Part VI in so far as they are affected by the provisions under review, and
3. (iii) any other individual, body or organisation in Wales exercising statutory functions which are or might be affected by the review.

(4) The outcome of a review under this section shall be published in the form of a report and shall be laid before Parliament.

(5) Where a report under subsection (4) recommends changes to the provisions of this Act, the Secretary of State may, not less than one month after publication of the report, make those changes by order.

(6) An order under subsection (5) shall not be made unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing it has been laid in draft before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament.").

The noble Lord said: My Amendments Nos. 267 and 270 are intended to be uncontentious. They are designed to be constructive and to make the Bill more, not less, effective in practice. When I spoke on Second Reading on 21st April, I said: If after some time it becomes clear that there are aspects of the new arrangements which do not work well, the introduction of new, amending legislation might well cause disquiet and controversy by suggesting that the Government might be going back on their commitments. Would it not therefore be sensible, and very much in the interests of the people of Wales, to have a clause in the Bill providing for a review of the arrangements after, say, two years, so that any necessary or desirable changes and improvements could be made without bringing in new legislation?".—[Official Report, 21/4/98; col. 1094.] This amendment produces the clause I then suggested. It provides a simple mechanism to enable any small defects which become apparent to be corrected. It applies to only parts of the Bill and the review can be initiated either by the assembly or by the Secretary of State. Any changes will be subject to the approval of Parliament. I commend the amendments to the Government and to the Committee. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

There is some merit in the proposal put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, especially as he clearly exempts parts of the Bill which I suspect the Government would not wish to have reviewed. It seems sensible that we should accept that this Bill, as with the Scotland Bill, will not be perfect. This is a novel arrangement for people in the United Kingdom and therefore it is sensible to include some procedure for the review of certain aspects of the legislation. If as a result of the review it is decided that changes are necessary there is a procedure for making those changes. I believe that the amendment deserves favourable consideration by the Government and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

As always, I regard the noble Lord's amendment as intended to be constructive and helpful. I am not able to support it. It would be unusual for a Bill to have a self-amendment clause. I believe that the way forward is to think of Clause 34 which allows the assembly to consider any matter affecting Wales and to make representations accordingly. Therefore, if there were occasions such as those referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, the assembly is able to make representations according to what it finds to be a defect.

Then there is the proposal that would enable the Secretary of State by order to amend most of the Bill by enactment. I recognise that the amendment is put forward in a constructive way, but we believe that there are strong reasons to reject it. It gives the Secretary of State sweeping Henry VIII powers to allow him to alter the nature of the assembly without regard to the wishes of those who elected it or the assembly itself. The Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee has already drawn your Lordships' attention to the number of Henry VIII powers already contained in the Bill.

More fundamentally, we fear that if the noble Lord's amendment were passed it would prevent the emergence of a stable devolution settlement. The Secretary of State could at any time overturn nearly all the relevant provisions without—and I stress this—bringing forward fresh primary legislation. The mere presence of those powers on the statute book would be a recipe for permanent uncertainty and we do not believe that that would be good for the assembly, for Wales or for the Union.

We support flexibility. I am grateful to the noble Lord for the enormous amount of time and trouble he has taken and for the courteous way in which he has always approached me with his amendments, privately and in correspondence. I am sorry to have to reach the disappointing conclusion that we cannot accept them.

Lord Moran

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and I understand what he says. It is unusual to have a review clause in a Bill, but this is a rather unusual Bill. We are entering new territory.

I welcome his comments about Clause 34 and I hope that it will not be necessary to make changes. However, I believe that in practice there will be defects. We have already found some and corrected them in Committee. I was seeking only to provide a mechanism to achieve that. However, I hope that by using Clause 34 the assembly will be able to make the necessary changes. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 151 [Power to amend enactments]:

6.30 p.m.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 268:

Page 74, line 12, leave out ("subordinate legislation").

The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment to bring the wording of Clause 151 into line with other references to subordinate legislation in Clauses 29(8), 43(6), 44(2) and 46(4). Therefore, it is intended to bring consistency. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

Does this amendment mean that once the words "subordinate legislation" are out, paragraph (b) will be referring to subordinate legislation in fact because that is what is made, whereas Acts of Parliament are passed? I do not understand why the Government have tabled this amendment.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

The point of this amendment is to leave out in line 12 the words "subordinate legislation". I am not entirely sure that I understand the drift of the noble Lord's question. That may well be my deficiency. As I understand it, it is simply to bring consistency and conformity with those other parts of the Bill to which I referred. I may have misheard the noble Lord's question.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

It may be that I did not phrase it very well. Do I take it that the Secretary of State may by order change any subordinate legislation, just as in paragraph (a) it appears that he can change an Act?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

Yes.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

On Question, Whether Clause 151, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

My noble friend and I have tabled our opposition to this Motion. This clause, as anybody who reads it will see, is a fairly large Henry VIII clause. I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, has left us because I am sure that he would be interested in contributing to the debate. I am sorry also that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, equally interested in Henry VIII clauses, is not with us. Therefore, I must say my few words having learnt at their feet. Whenever I proposed anything that looked vaguely like a Henry VIII clause they came to their feet and reprimanded me.

I do not believe that I ever proposed anything quite a draconian as this Henry VIII clause. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, suggested to the noble Lord, Lord Moran, a few moments ago that his amendment was a self-amending clause. It seems to me that Clause 151 is a self-amending clause. The Minister suggested also that that amendment would be a Henry VIII clause. Clause 151 is the mother and father of Henry VIII clauses. It states: The Secretary of State may by order make in any enactment contained in … an Act passed before or in the same session as this Act, or … such amendments or repeals as appear to him to be appropriate in consequence of this Act". I have little doubt that the Minister will tell me that I should not worry because the matter can be dealt with only by an affirmative order. I regret that I do still worry. It is an enormous Henry VIII clause.

I can see the point—and no doubt the Minister will make it—that with a piece of legislation as novel to us in this country as this, we may well have missed something with which we should be dealing today. After all, the repeals clause is fairly extensive. I can see that something may be missed which requires to be dealt with; that it would be foolish to require primary legislation; and that an affirmative order is a sensible solution. I am prepared to accept—as I suppose I must because I no doubt did it myself on a number of occasions—that an affirmative order is an acceptable way to deal with Henry VIII clauses.

However, this provision will be in the Bill for a long time to come. It worries me that way in the future, long after the time for sorting out some of the problems which may arise from learning to live with a new kind of structure in the UK, a Secretary of State—and I notice it is the Secretary of State—may decide to do something which goes beyond anything that we envisage in the course of our discussions in both Houses on this Bill.

Perhaps the Minister will consider allaying my reservations about this Henry VIII clause by considering a time limit. I shall not suggest whether it should be within a month or a year. However, there should be a reasonable time limit within which the clause should fold. Therefore, it will be there to help the Government to tidy up any loose ends which we may have omitted in Parliament, but it will also come to an end and cannot be used by a Secretary of State some years in the future in a way of which Henry VIII would have certainly approved.

Lord Hooson

Will the Minister consider what has occurred now after his amendment to take out the words "subordinate legislation" in relation to the wording of Clause 151? It now reads: The Secretary of State may by order make in any enactment contained in … made before the passing of this Act". The word "subordinate" should have been taken out but not the word "legislation".

Lord Williams of Mostyn

The noble Lord, Lord Hooson, may in part be right in that regard. We may well bring a printing revision before the House in due course. That has been noted and I am aware of it. The noble Lord is right about that.

I turn now to the more fundamental point, if I may say so without disrespect, which is raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish. These are reasonable questions to raise. This is not really a self-amendment clause because an order under Clause 151 cannot amend this Bill. It is limited quite substantially, as the Committee will see. The amendment power is limited to: An Act passed before or in the same session as this Act or … legislation made before the passing of this Act or in the session in which this Act is passed". I agree that it is a limitation; it is not an entire limitation. But if I understand the noble Lord correctly, he is talking about time in the future relating to time of amendment rather than the time of the passage of the original legislation.

Clause 151, with the limits that I have indicated, is a means of making consequential changes in the most efficient way possible. We have in mind that it may become apparent that the enacted provisions of this Bill are at odds with another statute. If so, the changes could be effected by order. That means that we do not burden this House or another place with fresh primary legislation to effect no more than what would be technical amendments. I suggest that it would be a waste of Parliament's time to require primary legislation and would produce unjustified, unwarranted and sometimes quite intolerable delay in making the necessary changes.

I am aware of what the noble Lord said about Henry VIII powers. One always needs to be careful. But the Committee will note that the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee saw no need to draw to your Lordships' attention the power in this clause. It noted that it and similar provisions in the Bill, all arise naturally out of the subject matter". There is the further limitation that Clause 151 makes it quite plain that it may be used only in consequence of the enacted provisions of the Bill. There is no carte blanche there. The noble Lord rightly foresaw that I would say, as I do, that this will be subject to the affirmative procedure in both Houses, so there is a check on the Secretary of State.

This clause intends to contemplate that we may have got things wrong; there may be errors and omissions; and it is a fairly simple mechanistic device to put things right, limited in the ways that I have indicated.

Clause 151, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 152 agreed to.

Schedule 15 [Repeals]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 269:

Page 131, line 16, at end insert—