HL Deb 03 June 1998 vol 590 cc425-31

(" .—(1) The Assembly may establish a committee to provide advice to the Assembly about matters affecting young people in Wales.

(2) A committee established under this section shall be known by such title as the standing orders may provide (but is referred to in this Act as the Youth Advisory Committee).

(3) The members of the Youth Advisory Committee shall be—

  1. (a) all members of the Assembly under the age of 26 at the time of their election to the Assembly, and
  2. (b) persons selected by the Assembly from outside the membership of the Assembly.

(4) The standing orders of the Assembly shall provide for the selection of the members referred to in subsection (3)(b).

(5) The Youth Advisory Committee shall elect one of the members of the committee to chair it.").

The noble Lord said: In the previous debate on regional committees, it was emphasised that that was somehow the most important issue facing the assembly in terms of its structure. In my view—I still adhere to this view even after a good dinner with my noble friend Lord Hooson—that is pandering to the old allegiances of Wales. My amendment is an attempt to create a different kind of citizenship. The reason why I propose the establishment of a youth advisory committee for the assembly and why I flag it up at the top of the flagpole is because I believe that there are now opportunities to transform the nature of participatory democracy within our society through the enhancing and deepening of a notion of citizenship, particularly among the younger citizens of the country.

I propose that a youth advisory committee should be established. It would build on the existing work of our tremendous young people's movement in Wales. I shall not try to list all the bodies concerned, but I have personal experience of the activity of the Boys and Girls Clubs, and of the Urdd, the Welsh League of Youth, the activity of which was evidenced so dramatically last week in Pwllheli at the annual eisteddfod. I refer also to the activity of the young farmers' clubs, which will be demonstrated yet again soon at the Royal Welsh Show at Llanelwedd. There are many other youth organisations.

Young people's culture in Wales is now becoming internationally recognised as a force for change. It is of deep cultural interest. It is a great joy to me that two young men from the Conwy Valley, part of the Catatonia Band, with their CD "International Velvet", were recently, and still are, at the top of the charts and that the Super Furry Animals shot up to No. 12 with "Ice Hockey Hair" only last week. I speak of these things because I am privileged in my own family to have younger men than myself, of that generation, who are involved in the media and in music.

That generation of young people has passed through many of the conflicts about the old kinds of Welshness which still seem to bedevil some of your Lordships in our debates. There is a notion of a post-modern, recreated sense of Wales and a sense of a new Welsh citizenship. We need to recognise that in a practical and participatory way by recognising the contribution of those young people to the remaking of Wales and by involving them actively in our processes.

I suggest that the Welsh youth advisory committee to the assembly should meet in the assembly building, in the chamber when the assembly is not sitting—or perhaps even when it is sitting, but not on sitting days—and that it should contribute actively a critique of the activities of the assembly.

This is not middle-aged paternalism on my part. I move this amendment because I believe that the creation of a new citizenship is an appropriate mission for the assembly. That citizenship must reverberate in another context which we discussed very late last night. I was very pleased with the response of the Solicitor-General on the question of the involvement of all the minority communities in Wales of whatever ethnic background. (I hate the word "ethnic", but it is a word in regular parlance to describe differences in culture and background.) I want that involvement to be part of the celebration of a diverse citizenship. This amendment more than any other gives us the opportunity to do that. I beg to move.

Lord Prys-Davies

I support this amendment probably for the same reason as that advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. In discussion with young people in Wales I do not detect political concern about the future so much as a concern that they should be involved in reforming the institutions of our society. I am not so sure that this is a new development. When I read the life history of Aneurin Bevan and James Griffiths I find the same impulse driving them forward. I should like to think that this is not just a modern development but is part of the history of Wales. It may well be that there are no members of the assembly under the age of 26 at the time of the election. Nevertheless, I believe that this amendment is very important. The critical words here are "may establish". I am sure that this should be drawn to the attention of the advisory committee and in due course the assembly.

Lord Davies of Coity

I believe that there must be a voice and expression for youth. I hope that some members of the assembly will be under the age of 26. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, referred to a number of organisations who represented young people in Wales in various fora. I wonder whether this is sufficient to draw to the attention of the assembly, by way of representations through those organisations, the advice that this clause suggests should be provided to the assembly. The provision is not mandatory; it refers to "may" rather than "shall" or "must". Therefore, there is an option as to whether the assembly establishes it or not. One wonders whether it is necessary to have this further tier of advice for the assembly through this kind of forum when there will be many other organisations representing young people in Wales who will be putting advice both to the assembly and presumably the regional advisory committees in any event.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, has this evening tabled a number of amendments which suggest additional committees in the assembly. I suspect that he has become rather worried because I have been sympathetic to his point of view and have understood his argument. On one occasion I tried to give his amendment a fair wind as it moved towards the Minister. On this amendment I shall redeem his reputation. I cannot support it. I fully appreciate the importance of involving young people in politics and the government of our country. But when I read an amendment like this it smacks of tokenism. I could shift youth and put down pensioners who are also a major group in our society; or I could put down women (if that were possible) or the disabled or ethnic minorities. There is a big danger here. Once one goes down this road people want more and more committees representing different groups.

As an outsider, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, made an impassioned plea against the regionalisation of Wales, setting one region against another by having regional committees. I believe that his argument carried some logic. I fear that that logic has been set aside during the dinner hour and we have reached an illogical position. If it is of any assistance to the Minister, he will have my support if he decides to reject this amendment.

Lord Hooson

I am sure that the Committee agrees that the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, should not disturb or upset the early election campaign of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas in this way. All noble Lords agree that youth should be encouraged to stand for the assembly in all parties. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies. He will remember the time when he was a wild young politician in Aberystwyth and I was an equally wild young politician on the other side. We did not need to be encouraged to go into politics; we had the instinct to do so. All of us would like to see young people stand for the assembly and become members of it.

But I believe that it is a little mean of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas—who has admitted for the first time, as I recollect, that he is middle-aged—to adopt a cut-off point of 26. The amendment provides that the members of the youth advisory committee should all be members of the assembly under the age of 26 at the time of their election to the assembly. One would have thought that 30 was a reasonable age, but there we are. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, always has his own agenda and 26 must be a magical figure in his mind. But I do not believe that we need statutory young people, as it were; we need young people who are impelled to go into politics. No doubt they can be leavened by some wise and experienced heads in the assembly, like that of the middle-aged gentleman, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. But I do not believe that it is necessary to lay down what the assembly should and should not do by way of committees.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

As my noble friend Lord Davies of Coity indicated, this is not a necessary amendment. Clause 55(1)(b) already allows the assembly to establish whatever committees it sees fit. Subsection (2)(b) removes the requirement for party balance if the committee or sub-committee is solely advisory. One could have a youth advisory committee composed of all members under 26. I believe that it would he a committee with either a vestigial or non-existent membership, if past experience is any indication.

I intended to resist this amendment vigorously until I heard the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish. He gave me cause for caution. It was suggested that one could have an assembly of pensioners. I did not say, "Look around". This is one of those wizard schemes, but it is no more than that. Certainly, we do not agree with the co-option of outside members. After all, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, pointed out—he did not complain—that there would be a two-tier membership—although he repudiated that description when the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, put it to him—namely, regional members and constituency members. Now he wants a third tier which is not elected at all. Goodness me! He must have been polluted by the House of Lords.

Lord Elis-Thomas

The reason for the cut-off age of 26 is that that is the age adopted by many of the youth organisations that we have discussed. As to the notion of involving young people who are not directly elected, it is important that the assembly should have advisory committees that do not necessarily restrict themselves to assembly members. There is therefore a relationship established between the assembly and outside bodies.

I am particularly concerned that we do not appreciate the extent to which there is serious disaffection about political processes not just among the younger generation but throughout the population. We must find new ways to do so, and not just by having a massive Welsh Office budget to promote the assembly by television advertising, however well it may do it. I have a high regard for the information division of the Welsh Office. I am sure that it will do it very well. In the budget that may be made available for the presentation of the opportunity that the assembly will provide, and the necessary excitement that should be created before the elections, I hope that the Welsh Office will have in mind the need to consult youth organisations to ensure that the youth vote is maximised, and that there will be a high level of participation.

We all referred to the legitimacy of the low poll in its referendum and the small majority. If we have such a low poll in the assembly elections themselves, we do not have legitimacy. Therefore we have to ensure that all sections of the population are involved, particularly those that have a vested interest in the creation and the future of the institutions.

That is not part of any election campaign; it is a serious reflection, unlike the aspersions on my integrity in these matters of the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, which I am sure he will soon withdraw. My concern is the involvement of the young people of Wales in the building of the new kind of post-modern Wales which we are desperately trying to construct. It is not on the old terms of bro' against bro' in which people indulged in the previous debate. Wales is to be a post-modern nation. Within that nation there is a distinction between diversity of gender, diversity of youth, diversity of age, and diversity of life cycle rather than this over-arching notion of community and region which seems to obsess people.

The young people of Wales do not have that view. They form an outward looking internationalist generation. We need to involve them in the construction of the assembly. Having said all that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but we may well return to this issue, even in this ageist assembly.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

9 p.m.

Clause 63 [Delegation of functions]:

[Amendments Nos. 171 to 189 not moved.]

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 190:

Page 33, line 9, at end insert ("; and in delegating a function under subsection (5) the Assembly First Secretary may limit or prohibit its further delegation under section 64.").

The noble Lord said: Within this group are my Amendment No. 190 and Amendment No. 190A tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. My Amendment No. 190 is a drafting amendment. It rectifies an unintended omission in the Bill.

Clause 63 authorises the assembly itself, its committees and its first secretary to delegate functions. Clause 64 permits delegation of functions to staff. In the case of the assembly or a committee, any exercise of the power to delegate can attach to it a condition of no further delegation to staff; in the case of the assembly first secretary no such ability to restrict onward delegation presently exists. The purpose of the amendment is to place the first secretary in the same position as the assembly or a committee when delegating a function. In other words, if he wishes he can attach a condition of no further delegation to staff. I beg to move.

Lord Elis-Thomas

My concern about this amendment relates again to the issue of where powers reside in relation to the structure of the assembly and its committees, particularly its powers to appoint. We referred to these issues late the other night in terms of the delegation of powers of appointment. My concern is that the powers of appointment may reside with secretaries and may not be for the assembly as a whole as regards public appointments. I hope that the Minister can respond to those issues.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

I am not sure whether the noble Lord was speaking to his Amendment No. 190A.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I was.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

I am sorry, I was not clear in my own mind. His Amendment No. 190A puts specific constraints on the powers to delegate. It would exclude delegating powers under Clause 31. In fact the assembly is given no powers to delegate in Clause 31. That clause allows Her Majesty, by Order in Council, to specify public posts in the filling of which the assembly will need to be involved. I take it that the noble Lord intends that when those posts are specified, the assembly should not be permitted to delegate its entitlement to be consulted before a Minister of the Crown makes the appointment. We are back to our old friend: why do we not trust the assembly to exercise its own functions and powers?

The Order in Council might specify appointments to S4C as ones upon which the assembly should be consulted before the appropriate Secretary of State reaches his decision. Surely the assembly might come to a conclusion that it should deal in plenary session, or it might come to the conclusion that it should be delegated to the assembly secretary and subject committee responsible for Welsh language matters. There may be some appointments which rightly should be considered in private. Some matters—relatively few, and the bias should be against privacy—need to be considered privately otherwise good candidates may well not put themselves forward.

The unintended consequence of the noble Lord's amendment would prevent that delegation. I think that my Amendment No. 190 should be supported because it is a tidying up amendment. We do not see the necessity for the constraint that Amendment No. 190A would impose upon the assembly's powers to set up committees. I invite the noble Lord to support my amendment and to withdraw his.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 190A not moved.]

Clause 63, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 64 [Exercise of functions by Assembly staff]:

[Amendments Nos. 191 and 192 not moved.]

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 192A:

Page 33, line 22, after ("functions") insert ("of its or his (to such extent as it or he may determine)").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No.193 not moved.]

Clause 64, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 65 agreed to.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendment No. 194:

After Clause 65, insert the following new clause—