HL Deb 03 June 1998 vol 590 cc397-410

(" . The Assembly shall designate one of its committees to be responsible for the environmental auditing of the Assembly's work.").

The noble Lord said: This amendment will be rejected by the Minister and the Liberal Democrat Benches because it includes the word "shall". As the Committee will have discovered by now, that word is intended in these amendments to flag up issues of concern to the assembly and its structure. The proposal is quite simple and I do not need to spend much time upon it. The issue of sustainable development will be debated again in the context of this Bill. I do not believe that it is possible to have sustainable development without a mechanism to deliver it. There is a mechanism in another place in the Westminster Parliament; namely, the Environmental Audit Committee. That includes among its members one of my party colleagues Mr. Cynog Dafis, the Member for Ceredigion, and a potential colleague in the national assembly, Mr. Gareth Thomas, the Member for Clwyd West, who I understand hopes to be elected on behalf of the other party of Wales—the bigger party, to revert to the earlier debate—to the assembly. The work of that committee is to consider the extent to which policies and programmes of government departments and non-departmental public bodies contribute to environmental protection and sustainable development, to audit their performance against such targets as may be set for them by Ministers and report to the House. I believe that that would be an ideal committee to be established in Cardiff. It could be the main mechanism for delivering the sustainable development objectives to be placed upon the assembly as a duty. We shall debate this later. I beg to move.

Lord Rees

I do not know whether it is entirely appropriate for me to make the following point. I thought that we rushed through this rather too quickly. I was about to get to my feet when Amendments Nos. 162 and 163 were called. Those are the responsibility of my noble friends Lord Roberts and Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish. The point that we have just debated arises also under subsection (4) of this clause. It may well be that a minority party forms the administration. It would not normally be the case but it would be possible for a Minister or one of the executive to be appointed chairman of the audit committee and not be disqualified from being so appointed because he would not be the first secretary or an assembly secretary and he would not be a member of the majority party. I do not know whether my fears are fanciful but perhaps the Minister can reassure the Committee that no executive person, who obviously is not a member of the majority party, can be appointed chairman of the audit committee.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

I think that the noble Lord is reverting to Clause 31.

Lord Rees

No.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

That deals with membership of the audit committee, which was the point that the noble Lord was making.

Lord Rees

Could the Minister reassure me that there is no possibility that a person with executive responsibility in the assembly could be a chairman of the audit committee?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

According to Clause 31(4) neither the assembly first secretary nor an assembly secretary may be a member of the audit committee. The first secretary and the assembly secretaries together comprise what has been called the executive. Therefore if neither the first secretary nor an assembly secretary—that is, the executive—may be a member of the audit committee, it seems to me that neither could be chairman of the audit committee.

Lord Rees

I apologise for taking up time.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

Not at all.

Lord Hooson

Does not the present phrasing of the Bill represent the reality of the political situation in Wales? The clause is designed to ensure that the dominant party in Wales—the Labour Party—does not have the chairmanship of this committee. That is the proposal. The Minister might look at the drafting to see whether it can be changed to meet the theoretical situation—in his view, I am sure—that might occur in the future.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

I shall consider that suggestion. Perhaps I may now turn my attention to replying to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. I take his point entirely that this is an extremely important aspect. I was going to mention to the Committee, but he has done that already, that another place has set up a similar body. I am sure that it will do useful work. The noble Lord said two things: first, this will flag up the importance of the issue—I entirely agree—and, secondly, it seems to be an ideal mechanism—I entirely agree—but the ultimate decision should be for the assembly.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I am grateful to the Minister, and because we both sustain each other in these matters, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 61, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 62 [Regional committees]:

Lord Roberts of Conwy moved Amendment No. 164:

Page 32, line 3, leave out from ("establish") to end of line 11 and insert ("five regional select committees to hold the executive committee accountable for the exercise of its functions in that region.

(2) Each regional select committee shall be responsible for an electoral region in effect at the last ordinary election.").

The noble Lord said: This is an important amendment. No one doubts the importance of Clause 62, which provides for the establishment of regional committees in Wales. There are distinctive regions within Wales, with their own special interests. It is important to the success of the national assembly that people feel at regional level that their interests are being considered and safeguarded. Some may regard the clause as perpetuating divisions, but I do not share that view. Neither do I think that the Secretary of State shares that view, because some Members of the Committee will remember that the Secretary of State, in commenting in the Welsh Grand Committee on the referendum, on 18th November last year, said: The referendum results showed a marked difference in the views between North Wales and South Wales and between East Wales and West Wales. I am conscious that we need to do a lot more work to bring Wales together. We must address the genuine concerns, and I acknowledge the fact that we must listen and continue to listen".

One of the ways in which the Bill proposes to deal with that problem is by setting up these regional advisory committees under Clause 62. Unfortunately, the clause refers only to North Wales. That is not even geographically defined. The "other regions" are without number or geographical definition. We know that the committees proposed, when established, will advise the assembly and will consist of elected assembly members for each area. The first problem is to define the regions geographically. The advisory group set up by the Secretary of State which examined the issue, but came to no firm conclusion, recognised that this is an issue on which there will be many different viewpoints and that none of the possible options would be perfect.

The advisory group mentioned two such options, the first being the four regions proposed by the Welsh Office for the recast Welsh Development Agency and the second being a seven-region model based on rurality and socio-economic indicators. I am told by the noble Lord, Lord Geraint, that there is also in circulation yet another new model which divides Wales into two.

Lord Elis-Thomas

The sheep and goats.

Lord Roberts of Conwy

The first four-region option described by the advisory group in its consultative document entitled A National Assembly for Wales as option A is not far removed from the five-region proposal based on the assembly's own electoral region pattern, which in turn is based on the five European parliamentary constituencies.

I would be the first to admit that, although those electoral regions, as they are referred to in the Bill, are not ideal in physical geographical terms, they are acceptable because an attempt has been made to secure constituencies of roughly comparable size in population terms—around the 400,000 mark. It is population and people who matter most in electoral representation. That has meant creating a mid-Wales electoral region which reaches from Llanelli to Llanrwst—an absurdity by most people's standards, but not immutably so. I think adjustments should be possible over time. The electoral regions as defined in the Bill which are to be used for the purpose of electing assembly members on a proportional basis would seem to be a good starting point.

I would argue that there is much to be said for establishing the five regional committees under Clause 62, based on the electoral regions used in the assembly elections and comprising the assembly members elected for those regions. Why adopt a different regional arrangement from the one used for elections to the assembly? If there are infelicities they can surely be put right in time by the Boundary Commission.

It has been suggested that the assembly's regional committees should be coterminous with other bodies' regional groupings—the WDA or the local authorities. But there is no suggestion in this clause that the membership of those committees should be extended beyond assembly members to other persons belonging to different bodies.

If our proposal is adopted, each committee would have a sizeable membership, I calculate of about 12. I have no quarrel with the advisory group's analysis of the role of regional committees in: ensuring that the Assembly has close links with the regions, liaising with regional economic fora, unitary authorities, town and community councils and other local groups", and drawing the assembly's attention to issues of concern to the regions. Some will feel, in the regions in particular, that this is inadequate. The electors of the regions may not be satisfied that their needs will be attended to. We therefore propose that each regional committee shall have the power to censure the executive committee, and that the executive committee should resign unless the assembly passes a vote of confidence in it within 28 days.

Members of the Committee may well think that that is taking matters somewhat far and that the more moderate line taken by my noble friend Lord Stanley of Alderley in his amendment is preferable. But Cardiff can be very remote to some of the Welsh regions, and the right to censure and to call for the executive's resignation would give the regional committees teeth which they currently lack. They would have a powerful means of drawing attention to their complaint and their censure could clearly not be ignored. The executive, too, would be put on its mettle to ensure fairness of treatment between the regions, and the fear that the assembly will be dominated by South Wales interests to the detriment of the remainder may be overcome.

I hope that I have set out a fairly reasonable case for the amendment. There is much concern in different parts of Wales, and a fear that they may be ignored. I do not think we are as yet in a position to command a national spirit behind the assembly. After all, politics is about interests, and the regions in Wales have different interests which they want safeguarded.

I shall listen with interest to the debate on the amendment, and to the Government's views. Whatever they are, I hope that the regional subdivision of Wales will not be yet another matter left to the determination of the assembly. Frankly, it is a problem best resolved here. I beg to move.

7 p.m.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Viscount of Oxfuird)

I have to advise the Committee that should this amendment be agreed to, I am unable to call Amendments Nos. 165 to 167 due to pre-emption.

Lord Stanley of Alderley

I hope that the Minister will agree with my noble friend that I am moderate. Amendments Nos. 165 to 167 are grouped with the amendment. The purpose of Amendments Nos. 165 and 166 is to ensure that the assembly will take account of the economic and social well-being of local communities in rural areas.

In case the Government have not yet got the message, there is a real crisis in Welsh agriculture at present, and being a pessimistic farmer I see too clearly the similarity between today's problems and those that occurred after the repeal of the Corn Laws. I believe that there is every chance of Welsh agriculture suffering a 50 to 60 year depression unless we, the Government, in conjunction with farmers, accept the problem and try to solve it, which I am sure is possible.

My fear, however, which the amendment addresses, is that our urban societies, which outnumber the rural ones, will not understand, or if they do will not heed, the rural communities' problems. It is a point I sought to make last night at some unearthly hour. However, the Minister rebuked me for being so suspicious and untrusting. I am sure that these problems will be aired in the regional committees. However, my fear is that the assembly will take this line of argument. I am sure all noble Lords have said at times to their wives, "What do you want to do today?" and before she has time to reply, they say, "This is what we shall do". That is the problem about which I am worried.

Relevant to the problem that I seek to resolve in the amendment is the issue of geography. I hope that I shall receive full support from the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. If we are to have the quality of person serving on the assembly, it is important that it is made possible and easy for such people to attend the assembly at Cardiff when they live in North Wales, and Anglesey in particular. At present the reliability of service, rolling stock and regularity of trains is bad to very bad. Do the Government have any plans to improve that? Without an improvement, they will not attract the right quality of person from North Wales to sit on the assembly, in particular as I hope that that person has another worthwhile job. I think of a potential Labour candidate who has just turned down the offer to become a candidate for the assembly for those reasons.

I suspect that the Minister will reply that the problem is not the Government's and is in the hands of the train operators. But no train operator can afford to improve the service for one assembly member. It is a real problem. I hope that the noble Minister will not reply, as did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, when we discussed this matter previously, by saying, "The noble Lord knows better than anyone how to get from Holyhead to Cardiff'. I did not know then, and I still do not know.

Amendment No. 167 ensures that regional committees are established for Mid Wales and West Wales as well as North Wales to ensure that the problems that I have enumerated on Amendments Nos. 165 and 166 are addressed.

Lord Thomas of Gresford

I regret to say that I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, although I congratulate him on bringing this important issue before us for discussion. I do not think that this is the place to decide where the regional committees are to be established, and the boundaries. It is a difficult issue. I have promised my noble friends a free vote on it because I am not sure that we all agree about the boundaries of North Wales, Mid Wales or West Wales. One can divide Wales by many barriers: mountains, language, river valleys, economic interests, and so on. I believe that the assembly will have to discuss such matters at considerable length before reaching a final conclusion as to where regional committees should be established. In particular, it will need to define the advice required from the regional committees. How is that advice to be put together, and in what form is it to be delivered to the subject committees, the cabinet, or civil servants? What is the nature of the advice to be given?

The clause contains the wise provision for a specific committee for North Wales, however one defines North Wales. I am sure that that provision is included because there is, and always has been, considerable disquiet that North Wales would be dominated by the south. Ironically, in the south there has always been considerable concern that it would be dominated by the north. It is one of the ironies of Wales that so many of the people who hold the levers of power and influence in our capital city come from North and West Wales because they have the facility of being bilingual. That is a matter of considerable importance in the administration of business and government, in the media, and so on.

One has only to consider the problems which are thrown up by trying to define the various regions of Wales in order to say immediately that this House, despite its expertise and knowledge, is not the place for us to reach a final conclusion. Nor is the other place because the way in which such issues can be discussed is not suitable for the type of debates which take place. I would leave the clause as it stands and put the responsibility on the assembly as its first task to decide what is the function of the regional committees, what advice they are supposed to give and to whom and where the boundaries should run.

Lord Elis-Thomas

It is about time that we were honest about the issue of regionalism in Wales. We all know why the provision was included in the Bill. It appeared in the White Paper for the reason which the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and my noble friend indicated; because the so-called North/South divide was an issue in the previous referendum. An attempt was made by the governing party—and all credit to it—in its referendum campaign to ensure that that did not happen.

After consideration, my view is that we make too much in our political structure, and we are making too much in this Bill, of the whole issue of regionalism in Wales. That is not to deny the importance of regional identity, regional differentiation, regional representation and so forth. In my view, we are about to construct a new form of national unity and diversity and we must therefore see the regions not as challenging or competing bases of political representation but as serious partners.

I warn the Government and the proposers of the amendments that they are pandering to the worst form of regionalism. There is a danger, in particular if one constructs a regional basis for a political constituency according to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord opposite, that we may create two tiers of members in the assembly. There will be the first-past-the-post members who are elected according to the ancient political placing of a cross on a piece of paper. There will be the members elected by regional franchise on the basis of the d'Hondt system and all those wonderful formulae which we discussed on the first day of the Committee. But those members will be equal. The danger is that if one creates a regional committee structure which is coterminous with the franchise for the regional elections, one is instituting a two-tier assembly with a national and a regional level. One is also instituting a two-tier membership; the regional members and the constituency members.

I believe that we must have a more radical approach to these matters. Although I do not agree with either of the proposals put forward in the report of the National Advisory Group, I am attracted by the Western model because it is applicable in terms of regional development. I am attracted also by the WDA regions—the TECH regional model—which brings me to the whole point of my speech. This is not a matter for this House—and here I disagree with myself in previous speeches. This is definitely a matter for the assembly by consultation and process. I would not put it as the first duty of the assembly; I would put it as an emerging duty. However, I would warn the assembly members not to pay too much attention to the issue of regional division. Politicians in Wales, including those in my own party, have played about with the issue of the regional division of Wales. My own party is guilty of that. We are creating a new national unity in which the diversity of the wonderful Marches, the border land and the west is just as important as the artificial creations called north, mid, south-west and east Wales. I am opposing the amendments and supporting the clause, but I issue dire warnings to the regionalists because in my book the regionalists are even worse than the nationalists.

7.15 p.m.

Lord Hooson

It is always a great pleasure to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. As he completed his speech I could not help wondering how many times he has disagreed with himself. From my knowledge of him over many years, I suspect quite a number. I agreed with a great deal of what he said in the earlier part of his address, but he did not do justice to his cause in the latter part of his speech.

It is very important that the assembly is generally accepted. The Labour Party will almost certainly have a large majority in the assembly. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, may shake his head and disagree with himself about this, too, but the reality is that only six parliamentary seats in Wales are held other than by the Labour Party. Let us look at the reality of what will happen.

From the Government's point of view, it is important that the assembly is generally accepted. Therefore, it is important that proper account is taken of regional susceptibilities. I represented an area in Montgomeryshire which deeply resented being included with Brecon and Radnor in an artificial creation called Powys which covers a quarter of the land surface of Wales. It is contrary to their history. The Tudors had it right because they paid regard to communications and to where the rivers flowed. Where the rivers flowed so market towns and the means of communication were developed. In an area which can be described as the Marches area, which included the old Montgomeryshire, there were many contacts across to Shropshire as well as west to Cardiganshire, to Merioneth and so on.

The regional susceptibility which exists must be carefully dealt with. If the assembly were to develop into a body dominated by what might be described as the old Labour attitudes in some of the area of South Wales it would ruin it for the Government and everyone. If there is anything which would upset the Labour control of Wales it would be making a mess of the assembly. Therefore, the Government must tread carefully on this issue.

I agree that we in this House should not try to define the regions. Most people in Montgomeryshire, for example, would prefer to be with North Wales if it were divided into a North Wales region and others. As I and people in the Welsh Office know, a number of representations have been made from Breconshire. It does not like to be part of Powys either and believes itself to be part of South Wales. The same probably applies to Radnorshire. But it should be left to the assembly to decide wisely in what way it will have regional committees. There is strength in the argument for a mid-Wales region because it has many similar problems. The Rural Development Board as it developed included Merioneth, Montgomery and so on and in many ways it was an actual region. The assembly might seek to go along those lines and define North Wales more narrowly.

It is important that within the assembly there is a sense that the affairs of a given area will be properly safeguarded. The dominant force will be from the industrial areas and there will generally be felt to be a need for strong protective regional committees able to influence the assembly generally. All in all, we must leave the matter to the good judgment and leadership of the assembly. I know that the present Secretary of State—I feel his presence—is most anxious to lead the assembly. He is very well aware of such problems. I am sure that he is totally dedicated to the idea of making the assembly a success and that he appreciates the importance of a sensitive solution to what may be described basically as the "regional problem".

Lord Davies of Coity

Although I have not lived in Wales for some years, I do not see any evidence that regionalism does not still exist. Clause 62 has the position just about right in terms of allowing the assembly to define precisely what the regions will be. We still hear terms—and they are expressed in the proposed amendments—about North Wales, Mid Wales, South Wales and West Wales. Of course, regionalism exists in reality.

I certainly support the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, that the assembly is designed to create a unity in Wales. But that unity must evolve and has to do so with confidence, strength and belief. It cannot do it overnight. There is an undoubted requirement for these regional advisory committees to represent respective and specific interests in the areas of Mid Wales, West Wales, North Wales and South Wales—indeed, wherever it happens to be—so that the assembly can take the decisions which will ensure that all the people of Wales are able to have confidence in the work of the assembly. All those interests must be represented.

I suggest to the Committee that Clause 62, as presently framed, should be supported. We should allow the assembly to define the lines of regionalism in Wales for, perhaps, the interim period. They may not need to exist forever and a day, but, when the assembly starts its work, such definition certainly needs to be there. Indeed, only the assembly can define those regions after a great deal of thought and consultation.

Lord Dixon-Smith

I apologise to Members of the Committee for not being present at the beginning of this discussion; indeed, I had not intended to intervene in it. As an Englishman, I find myself in the peculiar position, once again, of being on my feet, but in this instance perhaps with a word of warning. This is a debate about devolution. It is about devolution to a country with a long and proud history, which existed as a proper country a long time ago.

Devolution is an infectious disease if it is taken to its illogical extreme. There is a danger with devolution if we start to divide Wales into separate regions. A colleague of mine, who is not present in the Chamber this evening, described the country of Wales as a number of separate kingdoms and he is someone with a deep knowledge of Welsh history. The danger is that the devolution bug will be catching. If a part of Wales at some subsequent time feels that it is disadvantaged, it may begin to exert pressure on the national assembly for devolution from it.

I believe that it would be wholly regrettable if that were to happen. Although that example may seem a little like science fiction or, indeed, a little far fetched, some of the regional pressures and regional organisations that we see in Europe seem to press in that sort of a direction. Therefore, the concept of a regional sub-structure below Wales is not inconceivable. If it is conceivable, I believe that it is something about which we should be most concerned. There is great merit in the structure that is being proposed; but if we put in place the possibility of a sub-structure, I am not sure that we will not in fact undermine the foundations upon which this particular Bill is laid.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

As the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, said in his opening remarks, these amendments deal with different aspects of regional committees. I take most seriously the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Stanley of Alderley, especially his justified concern about current rural problems, which I fully recognise, as well as the question of difficult transport links from some parts of North Wales to an assembly building in Cardiff. Undoubtedly those transport problems are notorious. I am afraid that I speak with recent familiarity having journeyed to Aberystwyth for an honorary degree ceremony only last week. It does indeed take rather a long time to do so, particularly when, as in my case, there is always a man with a Morris Minor and a caravan immediately ahead on the road.

One way to deal with the matter is to be as flexible as the Secretary of State has indicated on various occasions; in other words, one does not have to have all the assembly business conducted in Cardiff on every occasion. That is an important point. Indeed, subject to the assembly's views, there is no reason at all why some committees should not sit outside Cardiff. Without wanting to be intrusive into the assembly's position, I believe that there is much virtue in that suggestion. It is perfectly simple these days to conduct business on video links. Much of the business of the Welsh Office is carried out in that way as indeed is that of the University of Wales. Sometimes it is just not possible or indeed necessary to have people gathered together in the same inconvenient location.

It is intended that this should be a modern building with use of IT and video links. In particular, the Secretary of State has made it perfectly plain that he wants an inclusive assembly so that those with disabilities or those who have to look after young children will not be disadvantaged as regards standing for the assembly. Therefore, we should not always have imprinted upon our minds the thought that Westminster is the only available model; indeed, it is not.

Amendments Nos. 164 to 169 fall into a slightly different category than that of Amendment No. 170. The first amendments look to three things. First, they define the boundaries of the regional committees as those of the five European constituency areas. Then they require the assembly to have regard to a regional committee's advice when making decisions affecting a region. Thirdly, there is the empowerment to censure with the consequence that the executive committee must resign unless the full assembly passes a motion of confidence.

The Government have problems with the first two propositions and we do not think that the third is necessary. We have not yet reached any decision on what the boundaries might be, but the one thing that we are clear about is what they should not be; namely, coterminous with the boundaries of the electoral regions.

Lord Simon of Glaisdale

Why?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

The noble and learned Lord has helpfully asked why. Indeed, I was just about to give the answer. Those boundaries are predominantly determined by electoral arithmetic. As the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, said, the five regions must, as far as possible, have about the same number of electors. That may well be perfectly appropriate for the regional component of the assembly electorate, but they do not purport to be identifiable communities of interest—indeed, I do not believe that anyone with any knowledge of Wales believes that they are.

The noble Lord gave the example of the distance, which is more than geographic, between Llanelli and Llanrwst. They are a world apart in many ways. I suggest to Members of the Committee that it would be very odd if the assembly wanted a regional committee which was giving advice on matters affecting the Vale of Glamorgan but excluding Bridgend. One only has to look at the details involved to realise that there are difficulties about what Amendments Nos. 164 and 168 would require.

As the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, said, the advisory group is consulting and has produced two maps each of which has some merit. The Welsh Affairs Select Committee supported one version, but the other also has its advocates. We should, perhaps, wait and see what the advisory committee recommends. As the noble Lords, Lord Thomas and Lord Hooson, pointed out, there is great virtue in letting the assembly decide what it best knows about.

I turn to Amendment No. 169. Members of the Committee opposite having pressed on the Government the merits of individual ministerial responsibility and the cabinet system, now propose that if the members of a regional committee are displeased by the performance of a member of an executive committee, they will be able to table a motion of no confidence and have it debated. That is not required because provisions on motions of censure are already available. We discussed those earlier. This measure is otiose. Any member of a regional committee by definition will be a member of the assembly. Any member of the assembly by definition—subject to standing orders about whether a quorum is needed to sustain the hearing of a censure motion—is entitled to table such a motion. I repeat that the measure is unnecessary.

Amendments Nos. 165 and 166 require the assembly to have regard to regional committees' advice. I understand the sentiments behind the amendments, but if the assembly does not have regard to regional committees' advice there is no point in having regional committees at all. I suggest that the scheme of the Bill makes the matter perfectly plain.

Amendment No. 170 requires that the regional committees should have regard to the effect which their proposals might have on local communities in rural areas. I do not think I can stress my next point strongly enough. I have sympathy with the deep concern that the noble Lord has expressed on this matter on a number of occasions, not only in the context of this Bill. One of the maps proposed by the advisory group would produce a regional committee which would have no rural committees to consider.

I do not resist the amendment on that ground, but I point out that any regional committee of any worth is bound to take account of the impact of any of its proposals on its local communities. After all, some rural communities have been badly hit, but one has only to travel half an hour from Cardiff to Merthyr, for instance, to appreciate that there is substantially more social deprivation and hardship on some of the estates in Merthyr than in some rural communities in the rest of Wales. I believe that is a perfectly objective observation. We are trying to produce an assembly which is capable of work. If it is to be capable of work, it must be trusted to reach its own conclusions about these matters. I believe that the present structure of the Bill is better than the alternatives that have been proposed.

7.30 p.m.

Lord Roberts of Conwy

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. The general feeling expressed by a number of Members of the Committee is that this is a matter best left to the assembly. Of course one respects that view, but we are dealing with a difficult problem as the Government are aware. The advisory group has told us that this is a difficult issue to resolve. It is a matter on which there are many different points of view. None of the possible options is perfect. I believe we would do the assembly, the Secretary of State and everyone a good service if we could complete Clause 62, as it were, and provide the divisions that are anticipated in that clause.

As regards the need for a committee system, there are two poles of opinion. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is totally devoted to the concept of national unity and a national approach. He wishes us to underplay the regional issue. I thought that the noble Lords, Lord Hooson and Lord Davies of Coity, were nearer the mark, especially when the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Coity, said that unity would not be achieved overnight. The noble Lord, Lord Hooson, talked of the need to respond to the regional aspirations that exist in different parts of Wales. The Government are absolutely right to think that there is a real need for these committees to express the views of different parts of Wales. I am assured by the Minister that it lies within the power of members of the assembly to initiate motions of censure which, by their very nature, will have to be attended to. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, said that we would create two tiers of members, as it were, through the electoral regions. However, the two tier membership already exists by the very nature of the composition of the assembly—the 40 constituency members and the 20 who will be elected by PR from the electoral regions.

Lord Elis-Thomas

I hope that the noble Lord is considering carefully what he is saying. He quite rightly said that I am inordinately devoted to national unity. I am also inordinately devoted to ensuring that the working practices of the assembly will ensure that all members are seen as equal. It is not a two tier membership; it is merely election for an area by a different form of franchise as part of a PR system.

Lord Roberts of Conwy

I think the noble Lord will have to recognise that the areas to which members are elected differ. There is a considerable difference between the parliamentary constituency, and the electoral region. There will not be the close attachment between the electoral regional member and his area that exists between the constituency member and his area as he is clearly identified with the constituency he serves.

I am grateful for this debate. I also paid attention to what my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith said. It is indeed possible that if one encourages regionalism too much, it may seek its own form of devolution. We certainly do not want to handicap the assembly in Wales by regional pressures of that kind. We may well return to this subject of regional committees because in spite of the view expressed that it is a matter best left to the assembly, I am sure in my mind that if we as a Parliament were able to provide a solution to this problem, we would do ourselves, the assembly, the people of Wales and the Government a service.

Lord Simon of Glaisdale

I have felt all along an interloper in these debates. I was encouraged by my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas who said that I was fortuitously qualified. I have listened to this debate with great admiration and benefit. It is obviously closely balanced. As the matter is to be further considered, I make a suggestion that may constitute a way of reconciling the various differences, and that is to do what we have done as regards the standing orders. In other words, the regions, like the standing orders, would be extraneously laid down, but with power to the assembly to alter them at its discretion when it comes to consider them more closely. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, and the Minister might, if the matter is left at large, consider that possibility.

Lord Davies of Coity

I am slightly concerned in relation to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, and reinforced by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, regarding the question of establishing advisory committees in regions, which might produce a regionalism which furthers devolution in the regions. My understanding is that this clause would ensure that a regional advisory structure exists to prevent aggravation and ensure that people in the regions have a voice and that their interests are represented. The structure itself will not provide a forum for a greater degree of devolution. What will provide that greater degree of devolution, if the matter arises, is not having representation by an advisory region.

Lord Roberts of Conwy

I am sure that noble Lords are grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, for his suggestion. I hope the Government will consider the matter. I certainly take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Coity. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton

I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving this Motion I suggest that the Committee Stage begin again not before 8.43 p.m.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House resumed.