HL Deb 01 July 1998 vol 591 cc757-60

Consideration of amendments on Report resumed.

Schedule 3 [Transfer etc. of functions: further provisions]:

[Amendment No. 36 not moved.]

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 37:

Page 83, line 19, leave out from ("culture,") to end of line 21.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in speaking to Amendment No. 37 I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 38, 228, 231, 232, 233 and 238, which are all within the same group. This set of amendments deals with the definition of Wales in the Bill and in particular the extent to which it includes the sea. The Interpretation Act of 1978 defines Wales by reference to the counties created by the Local Government Act 1972 in Section 20. As a result, the definition of Wales does not include the sea adjoining Wales. Paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 to the Bill currently provides for a ministerial function in relation to an area of sea adjoining the coast of Wales to be regarded as exercisable in relation to Wales, but this does not confine the reference to the territorial sea and only applies for the purposes of the transfer of ministerial functions to the assembly under Clause 22.

Amendment No. 232 inserts a definition of Wales in Clause 155 to include, the sea adjacent to Wales out as far as the seaward boundary of the territorial sea". This applies to all references to Wales in the Bill.

Amendment No. 233 gives an order-making power to determine for the purposes of the definition of Wales any boundary between the parts of the sea which are to be treated as adjacent to Wales and those which are not. This is necessary in the case of the Dee and the Severn estuaries and the Bristol Channel, where the coast of Wales is less than 24 nautical miles from the coast of England. The definition of the parts of the sea adjacent to Wales may be included in an Order in Council under Clause 22 or an order made by the Secretary of State under Clause 155.

Amendment No. 231 provides for an order by the Secretary of State to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, as is already the case for draft orders under Clause 22. We anticipated the need for provisions in the Bill about matters relating to the sea because the Secretary of State has certain powers in relation to fisheries conservation and management, marine emergencies, the protection of the human food chain and the protection of the maritime environment. These amendments simply enable the seaward areas for which the assembly will have responsibility to be clarified and therefore defined.

We thought that it was right to limit the responsibility to the territorial sea to 12 nautical miles from the coast. It was also decided that the Bill should permit certain functions exercised beyond that limit to be made subject to a requirement to consult the assembly. That is the point of Amendment No. 38. They are largely functions concerned with the disposal and abandonment of oil and gas installations in Welsh-controlled waters.

As with the territorial sea adjacent to the coast of Wales, it is necessary to have the power to determine what are the boundaries of Welsh-controlled waters. This can be done by means of an order under Clause 22 or Clause 155, but again, I stress, subject to the approval of Parliament via the affirmative resolution procedure. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. I now rise only to say to him that he has in fact answered the questions I was going to ask, and so I am grateful for what he has said.

The Earl of Balfour

My Lords, I should like to ask just one question, because I am sure we are all very concerned about the smuggling of illegal drugs and so on. I hope that Customs and Excise, which would be dealing with such matters, is basically under United Kingdom control and its powers would not necessarily be delegated to the Welsh assembly in respect of the protection of these waters against smuggling and so on. It concerns me that the coastguards and Customs and Excise will continue to be managed by the United Kingdom Parliament.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, I understand the noble Earl's concerns, but the powers that are intended to be devolved to the assembly are simply those powers which the Secretary of State presently has, and police powers, Customs and Excise powers and powers of the kind the noble Earl has in mind are not presently under the control of the Secretary of State. They are—wearing my other hat—powers that are still within the Home Office or within Customs and Excise.

The Earl of Balfour

My Lords, I am much obliged to the Minister.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 38:

Page 83, line 47, at end insert—

("Functions exercisable beyond the territorial sea

.—(1) The power conferred by section 22(1)(c) includes power to direct that any function under—

  1. (a) Part II of the Food and Environment Protection Act 1985 (deposits in the sea), or
  2. (b) Part IV of the Petroleum Act 1998 (abandonment of offshore installations),
so far as exercisable by a Minister of the Crown in relation to Welsh controlled waters shall be exercisable by the Minister only after consultation with the Assembly.

(2) In this paragraph "Welsh controlled waters" means so much of the sea beyond the seaward boundary of the territorial sea as is adjacent to Wales.

(3) The power conferred by section 22(3) includes (in particular) power to determine, or make provision for determining, for the purposes of the definition of "Welsh controlled waters" any boundary between—

  1. (a) the parts of the sea which are to be treated as adjacent to Wales, and
  2. (b) those which are not,
including power to make different determinations or provision for different purposes; and an order under section 155(1A) may include any provision that by virtue of this sub-paragraph may be included in an Order in Council under section 22.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 39:

Page 85, leave out lines 19 and 20 and insert—

("(1) This paragraph applies where a function is exercisable by a Minister of the Crown—

  1. (a) only with the agreement of, or after consultation with, another Minister of the Crown, or
  2. (b) only with the authorisation of Parliament or either House of Parliament.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment provides for the disapplication of provisions in certain Acts: for example, the Ministry of Transport Act 1919 and the Industrial Development Act 1982, where action can only be taken by the Secretary of State if authorised by a Resolution of either House or both Houses of Parliament. The Bill at present would not disapply those provisions and so this amendment widens the scope of paragraph 8 of Schedule 3 so that it operates to disapply not only the requirements for ministerial consultation and agreement but also parliamentary authorisation requirements. It would not, I suggest, be appropriate to subject the assembly to the latter requirements because your Lordships have already agreed that other forms of ministerial and parliamentary approval should not apply to the assembly. This is therefore essentially a tidying-up amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Roberts of Conwy moved Amendment No. 40:

After Clause 26, insert the following new clause—