Saudi Arabia: Detention Practice (Hansard, 19 January 1998)

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, Saudi Arabia will be considered under the confidential 1250 1503 procedure of the UN Commission on Human Rights. We would expect practice in places of detention to be among the subjects raised by non-governmental human rights organisations.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, has the Minister had time to glance at the report, Torture in Saudi Arabia: No Protection, No Redress, which is to be published tomorrow? I understand that a copy was sent to her. It illustrates that torture and ill treatment in places of detention in Saudi Arabia are widespread and persistent. Is that not caused partly by the practice of holding people incommunicado for long periods before they are brought to trial? Will that matter also be raised with the UN Commission on Human Rights? Does the Minister believe that, in view of that evidence, it would be useful for the UN rapporteur on torture to visit Saudi Arabia to see whether, in collaboration with the government of that country, he can help in eradicating the causes of torture?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I have glanced at the report to which the noble Lord referred and which is to be published tomorrow, although as yet I have not been able to study it very thoroughly. Her Majesty's Government condemn unequivocally the practice of torture wherever it occurs. We shall certainly study that report in greater detail and look carefully at its recommendations.
We continue to be concerned about reports from Amnesty International and other non-governmental organisations of torture in Saudi Arabia. Indeed, in his Question the noble Lord refers to holding individuals incommunicado in Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, the very particular form of Sharia courts is one which is very different from our own system. Under our system we would find holding people incommunicado extremely difficult and when that occurs we make representations to the authorities on a consular basis to the Saudi Arabian authorities. Her Majesty's Government have supported the noble Lord on previous occasions in relation to the UN rapporteur, and it is regrettable that the UN rapporteur is not welcome in Saudi Arabia. We hope that our representations on a wide number of issues will also include that matter.

§ Lord Moynihan
My Lords, while I recognise the right of states to bring to justice those convicted or accused of recognised criminal offences, what specific policy initiatives are the Government taking in line with their ethical foreign policy to encourage the access of human rights monitors, including Amnesty International, into Saudi Arabia to observe its judicial system?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, we have done what we can to encourage the Saudi Government on this issue. Our embassy in Riyadh raised this matter on 31st May and on 16th November. We stressed the public and parliamentary concern felt in this country in relation to those issues. Torture was discussed specifically, as was our wish to see greater freedom for individuals to practice non-Moslem 1251 worship. My right honourable friend Mr. Derek Fatchett has also discussed those matters with the Saudi ambassador in London and I have had occasion to raise some of those issues on a consular basis with the Saudi ambassador in relation to particular cases of British individuals in detention in Saudi Arabia. Therefore, we have raised this matter on a number of occasions and in different fora.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, while we recognise the importance of Saudi Arabia to British economic interests, particularly as a country to which we export a great many arms, does the Minister recall the series of lectures which Sir Anthony Parsons gave in 1980-81 on our failure to foresee the likelihood of a collapse of the Iran Government and regime and the adverse consequences to Britain of having become over-committed to the Shah? Are the Government conscious of the internal tensions within Saudi Arabia and the need to conduct a very delicate foreign policy relationship with that regime for much the same reason?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, we are very conscious of the points which the noble Lord rightly makes. Of course there is an important economic relationship with Saudi Arabia, but there are also very important human rights issues at stake. We engaged the Saudis in confidential dialogue on a full range of human rights issues, including that relating to torture, which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, raised in his Question. We welcome the fact that the Saudi Government have acceded to the UN convention on torture. That is a delicate matter. It does not mean that we should not address it robustly but we must address it in the delicate way which the noble Lord has indicated if we are to achieve any results rather than just make loud noises in the right places. That is not the point. The point is that we should make a difference.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, of course there is a need for delicacy, which is always prayed in aid as an excuse for doing nothing. But does not the Minister agree that Saudi Arabia is not exempt from the Foreign Office mission statement goal that the Government will seek to promote the human rights and democracy which we demand for ourselves, and that that includes immunity from torture and detention without trial as well as the other human rights and freedoms which are similarly lacking in Saudi Arabia?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I should be most alarmed if anything that I have said to your Lordships' House had led your Lordships to believe that the Government in any way take a different view from the view that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has expressed. My remarks about delicacy were merely that the Government must consider the most effective way in which to argue human rights issues where there 1252 are different cultures and different religious practices and observation, and where the attitudes towards human rights are very different from our own.