HL Deb 26 February 1998 vol 586 cc789-92

3.9 p.m.

Earl Baldwin of Bewdley

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they are satisfied with the independence of the advisory and other scientific committees reporting to the Department of Health and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in view of the extent of the links which their members have with the various industries concerned.

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Baroness Jay of Paddington)

My Lords, the noble Earl is right to be vigilant about specialist advisory committees. The Government have every confidence in the independence of the advisory and scientific committees reporting to the Department of Health and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. There are well established procedures under which any member with a commercial interest in a matter under discussion declares that interest; he or she may, if necessary, abstain from the discussion.

We recognise that the very fact that many members of advisory committees are highly regarded in their fields makes them attractive to commercial organisations. It is therefore no surprise that high calibre people on advisory committees receive funding from commercial organisations. This was one of the key messages contained in guidelines, The Use of Scientific Advice in Policy Making, published last year and delivered to the previous administration by Sir Robert May, the Chief Scientific Officer, which the Government have accepted.

Earl Baldwin of Bewdley

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for the reply. She will remember that I asked a similar Question in December on the Committee on Toxicity of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products and the Environment, which revealed a preponderance of interests from the side of industry, and that through a subsequent Written Question I obtained details of the financial interests of members of a further 14 of the key scientific committees. Is she aware that analysis of those figures shows a similar pattern to that of COT, with links to the food and chemical industries averaging over 60 per cent. and, in the case of one or two committees, exceeding 80 per cent.? Does she feel that that is a healthy state of affairs?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, the noble Earl rightly reminds the House of his previous inquiries on this subject when I replied that the Government have some concerns about the balance of interests on such committees and that that was one of the reasons why we were exploring, and why we are currently exploring, lay representation on the specific committee, COT, to which the noble Earl refers, and why we are seeking to include observers from relevant interest groups on the ad hoc group on vitamins and mineral supplements which is being set up. In addition, we have issued a consultation paper on opening up quangos. That is now out for consultation.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, the Minister's Answer gives a great deal of satisfaction. However, can she tell us whether any register of those involved in such positions is available to the public so that the public can know how great their financial interest is, bearing in mind some of the excesses that occurred under the last government which went totally unpunished?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, the interests of those serving on independent advisory committees are published regularly. As I have explained previously in relation specifically to COT, that information has been placed in the Library of your Lordships' House. This is one of the issues that we are considering as part of our consultation paper on opening up quangos. The consultation exercise is particularly interested in the availability of public minutes of such meetings and in the question of whether or not such meetings should be open to the public.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, although there is much to be said for continuity and experience, does the Minister agree that the adage "Familiarity breeds contempt"—and perhaps even "complacency"—may be relevant here, given that some members of those committees have served for a very long time and there appears to be a hard core of about 25 individuals who circulate between the committees? What are Her Majesty's Government doing to ensure that there is decent rotation so that new opinions come in from time to time?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, those of us who are involved in public life in one way or another are well aware of what is sometimes referred to as the "Establishment stage army." We all need to be well aware of the potential for the sort of difficulties to which the noble Countess refers. Appointment procedures for those expert advisory committees are supervised and maintained under the Nolan procedures. There is also regular reappraisal of members of the committees and regular reviews of appointments.

Lord Willoughby de Broke

My Lords, is the advice given by such committees and particularly by the scientific committees always, or ever, subject to peer review?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, what the noble Lord, I think, wishes to know is whether reports of. for example, COT—I know that that has been controversial—are subject to consultation. The answer is that if such a report recommended regulations under the parliamentary procedure, it would be open for consultation. On the point about peer review, one of the operations of such scientific committees is precisely to carry out peer review of the papers and advice put forward by other members of the scientific community.

Earl Howe

My Lords, in our deliberations last December on the committee on toxicity, the noble Baroness was good enough to agree with me that the attendance of outside experts in a particular area of discussion could well assist the committee from time to time. Does she further agree that that principle could usefully he extended to all advisory committees and, if so, will she seek to bring that point to the attention of committee chairmen?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Earl is well aware that many such committees do not fall specifically under the organisation or auspices of the Department of Health. In fact, COT reports to both departments—to MAFF and to the DoH. It is worth remembering that our consultation exercise on opening up quangos is looking at many such issues. As I said in my earlier answers to the noble Earl, Lord Baldwin, this is a subject of some concern. We are concerned that, for example, some of these committees have no lay or consumer representation. We are looking closely at that. The noble Earl's point should be drawn to the attention of those conducting the review.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is not only a question of the independent advice that is offered to the Government and the Ministry by these independent committees; it is also important to maintain the independence of the permanent Civil Service, to which they give their advice? Although it is inevitable that a close relationship must exist between officials and the food production companies concerned, is it not necessary that there should be a degree of aloofness by the Ministry, as a ministry, and an ever-increasing awareness of the needs of consumers?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, as so often, my noble friend draws attention to the narrow tightrope of the balance of interests which government departments have to walk in this area. As I said, we are striving to maintain the independence of the science together with a proper representation of consumer interests and an arm's length relationship with government departments.

Viscount Addison

My Lords, does not the noble Baroness agree that members of the public will not really be satisfied unless there is full transparency, particularly of those serving on the new food safety advisory committee?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, the consultation paper on opening up quangos makes a number of proposals in that area which will further strengthen independence by progressively opening up those quangos to scrutiny and making them more accountable to the public. As I said earlier, such proposals may well include publishing annual reports and reports of meetings, and the holding of open meetings which the public may attend.