§ Baroness Strangeasked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will withdraw the export licence to Malaysia of HMS "Cavalier", the only remaining RN destroyer which fought in World War II, and support her retention in Great Britain.
§ The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Clinton-Davis)My Lords, the export licence issued in connection with the proposed export of this vessel to Malaysia has been returned to my department. I understand that the former licence holder no longer intends to export the vessel.
§ Baroness StrangeMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his, as always, courteous, if not helpful, reply. I, too, am aware that the first part of my Question has become overtaken by events. However, is the noble Lord aware that there is an HMS "Cavalier" Association which would be willing by public subscription to provide some funds towards the retention of HMS "Cavalier", perhaps at the historic maritime dockyard at Chatham, if other funds could be forthcoming?
Is the noble Lord further aware that 153 ships of this type were lost in the Second World War, with 30,000 members of their company giving their lives for us?
§ Lord Clinton-DavisMy Lords, I am grateful for that supplementary question from the noble Baroness. Yes, I am of course aware of the work of the association and of its aspirations. One also recognises the contribution made to the war effort by those who sailed in ships of this class. It is also true that this is the last surviving vessel of its kind. But the fact is, as my right honourable friend the Minister for the arts said yesterday when he spoke at the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, that, while the Government are aware of the emotional attachment which undoubtedly this ship gives rise to, they do have to make hard choices about the availability of funds for preservation. I have to say that the vessel is not a top priority for the department that my right honourable friend represents. However, if other sources of funding can be made available, and, if a suitable location could be found, the Government would be delighted.
§ Lord DixonMy Lords, is the Minister aware that, until South Tyneside bought HMS "Cavalier" in 1987 from a company in Brighton which went bankrupt, that vessel might have been scrapped? South Tyneside Metropolitan Borough Council bought the vessel to be part of a national shipbuilding exhibition centre. The 222 "Cavalier" was to play a main part. It was to be based at Hawthorn Leslies shipyard, which built some of the finest naval vessels ever to be put to sea. I spent many years there as a shipwright.
Is my noble friend also aware that the reason the project did not go ahead is that the previous administration cut back on local government expenditure? The former Department of the Environment ruled that urban money could not be used for projects which were covered by urban development corporations; and the Tyne and Wear Development Corporation was too interested in prestige projects in Newcastle to be concerned about the project at South Tyneside.
Is he also aware that we would welcome some finance, because it cost the council tax payers of South Tyneside, of which I am and have been one all my life, over £600,000 to maintain this vessel and that project?
§ Lord Clinton-DavisMy Lords, I was aware of most of that. I did not know that my noble friend had been a shipwright. I suspected that he probably was and still is a taxpayer. But I am most grateful to him for that information. Of course he is right in saying that the South Tyneside Metropolitan Borough Council did a stalwart job in seeking to maintain this vessel. I pay tribute to it in that regard.
Perhaps I may add this; it may help the House on the issue. At yesterday's Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, representatives of the National Heritage Lottery Fund indicated that it might be willing to consider an application for support for HMS "Cavalier" in its own right under its fast-track procedures. I thought that the noble Baroness in particular might be delighted to hear that.
§ Lord IronsideMy Lords, as "Cavalier" has given the country a very good run for its money over the years and as she is now on Tyneside, at the heart of the warship building industry, does this ship not symbolise more for the north-east than the fabricator's folly which has just been erected in Gateshead? Can the Government go that extra sea mile, as they did with "Britannia" and help find a proper home for this warship? She was never a first of class; she was never a flotilla leader, so far as I recall; but she is a survivor. I believe that she is worth a place in history.
§ Lord Clinton-DavisMy Lords, I am not quite sure what the question was. It seemed more an assertion than a question. These matters are not within my area of responsibility. The noble Lord should write to the appropriate government department. As to the term, "fabricator's folly", no fabrications are known to this House as I understand it.
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that answers to questions that begin with a statement that a matter is "not within a Minister's area of responsibility" are not good enough in this House? 223 He answers for the whole of Her Majesty's Government. If he does not know the answer, could he perhaps write to the noble Lord?
§ Lord Clinton-DavisMy Lords, I am most grateful for that lesson, which the noble Lord imparted with his usual geniality. I do not seek to pass off responsibility. What I sought to say, perhaps inelegantly, was that the noble Lord would do well to write to the department concerned about this matter. If he wishes me to receive the letter in the first place, then I shall certainly act as a suitable postman.
§ Lord Cocks of HartcliffeMy Lords, perhaps I may address the House as Able Seaman equivalent, Writer Cocks P/MX830065. I was very encouraged by the Minister's remarks. A great many people in the north-east pay into the lottery and there is a feeling that they have not received as much out of it as some other areas in the country. Will the Minister reinforce the plea and press the lottery fund? If this ship goes, coming generations will ask what on earth we were doing.
§ Lord Clinton-DavisMy Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Able Seaman Cocks for that suggestion. I shall certainly pass on (and I hope that that will meet with the noble Lord's acquiescence) his assertion to those responsible for the lottery fund. I hope that the statement that I made yesterday before the Heritage Committee as to what the lottery fund had to say about the matter will prove helpful.
§ Baroness StrangeMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his earlier Answer. I am very grateful indeed for his encouraging reply.