HL Deb 16 December 1998 vol 595 cc1343-5

2.40 p.m.

The Countess of Mar asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they propose to take the same action against meat inspectors and other officials in breach of statutory rules as they have promised to take against private companies.

Lord Carter

My Lords, the Government take appropriate action against anyone in breach of statutory rules. Where necessary, disciplinary action is taken against meat inspectors and any other officials who are in breach of statutory rules. This may extend to prosecution. Private companies which fail to comply with statutory requirements will, in appropriate cases where other enforcement action has failed, be investigated with a view to prosecution.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Does he recall that when his party was in opposition, he and his right honourable friends the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister vigorously opposed the setting up of the Meat Hygiene Service? Is the noble Lord aware that the service is so short of British vets that it is having to employ vets from six different European countries, many of whom are young female vets?

Will the noble Lord agree that an abattoir is not a very congenial place in which to work? In the light of reports a few weeks ago of attacks on Meat Hygiene Service vets, is it not surprising that all of them have not been attacked? What do the Government propose to do to improve the understanding on the part of those young vets of our culture—there are many cultural differences—improve their communication so that they can communicate the law to the abattoir workers, and instil a spirit of co-operation rather than confrontation in abattoirs?

Lord Carter

My Lords, I agree that one does not go to an abattoir for an afternoon tea dance. Due to the shortage of veterinarians in the UK who are willing to carry out meat hygiene work, the MHS is seeking to recruit English-speaking vets from Europe. Foreign veterinarians engaged by the Meat Hygiene Service are required to have a working knowledge of the English language. The MHS recognises that working in slaughterhouses can be a difficult environment for all staff, in particular if they have to take rigorous enforcement action. However, the Official Veterinary Surgeon (OVS) is part of a team and the MHS provides every support to its staff. The MHS operates a hierarchy of enforcement staff. They seek to co-operate with operators. Only if that fails does more rigorous enforcement action come into play, and those are more serious offences such as animal welfare, food safety and specified risk material controls. Out of a total staff of 1,500, 118 are foreign vets, of whom 47 are women. Of the 47, 36 are from Spain.

Baroness Byford

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House how many abattoirs are operational now compared with five years ago? I should like to know how many are closed but keep their licence. It is necessary that there should be sufficient abattoirs up and running at this time.

Lord Carter

My Lords, there are 640 licensed abattoirs. In addition there are just over 900 other licensed premises such as cold stores, cutting rooms, and so on. We do not know the number—it is very small—of those which have closed but still retain their licences. As soon as the authorities are aware of closure, they attempt to revoke the licence.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, can the Minister say whether he believes that the Meat Hygiene Service is doing its job? Originally we were worried about BSE and E. coli. I understand that the incidence of E. coli is increasing exponentially. I sincerely believe that most abattoir owners seek to co-operate with the Meat Hygiene Service. However, they find that extremely difficult when, the Meat Hygiene Service operators having said, for example, "I found a piece of stainless steel that you have not washed", and having been asked, "Where?", they receive the reply from the inspector, "You can find it". Is that the atmosphere in which these people should be asked to work?

Lord Carter

My Lords, I am always wary of anecdotal evidence. However, the protection of consumers is the Government's first priority. We are determined to ensure that meat produced for human consumption is produced to high standards. The MHS has been instructed to take rigorous actions where necessary to ensure compliance with the requirements of the law to ensure the protection of public health. A balance must be struck between effective enforcement and overregulation. We believe that we have got it right. We are determined to give the protection of public health the highest priority.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire

My Lords, is it government policy further to reduce the number of slaughterhouses, given that those are often sources of useful employment and local activity in rural areas? Alternatively, as part of its rural policy, does the Ministry include keeping open as many slaughterhouses as possible, and indeed encouraging some to reopen in remote areas which are major meat producers?

Lord Carter

My Lords, the noble Lord raises a fair point about the balance between the rural economy and the fact that there is substantial over-capacity in the red meat slaughtering sector and in particular in respect of abattoirs which slaughter cattle and sheep. There is intense competition between slaughterhouses for throughput and for customers. We know that the profit margins are low.

As a result of that over-capacity, it is inevitable that some will have to close. Abattoir numbers have been declining year on year for more than 20 years in response to commercial pressures and demand in specific areas.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the Minister satisfied that the same strict standards to which he himself has referred in his answers are being applied inside the European Community, in particular in France?

Lord Carter

My Lords, harmonised EC meat hygiene rules—I am sure my noble friend will be delighted to know that they apply equally in all EU member states—lay down detailed and specific requirements for the supervision of licensed abattoirs by official vets; that is, the fully qualified veterinary surgeons. The rules specify the duties and the responsibilities of such official veterinarians in respect of ante mortem and post mortem veterinary inspections.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, asked whether the rules were applied equally throughout the European Union. Will the Minister confirm that they are?

Lord Carter

My Lords, as far as we are aware, yes. If they are not, that is the job of the Commission.