Functions of Traffic Wardens (Scotland) Order 1998 (Hansard, 14 December 1998)

§ Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, I join with others in welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Tradeston, to his new role. I do not want to take up time, but there are one or two points I wish to make about the order. First, although the noble Lord has given a list of the extension of powers of traffic wardens, I hope that he will accept that they fall into two distinctive categories. I do not think that anyone would query the extension of powers for traffic wardens to act as parking attendants or school crossing officers and so on, but the second category is quite different. It is a new concept in Scotland that someone other than a police officer could demand the identity of a driver or the production of a driving licence, or could issue a fixed penalty in respect of an endorsable offence. That is a major extension of the role of traffic wardens. It should not be entered upon lightly without some cross-examination.
For example, the question of whether a vehicle is dangerously parked is a matter of opinion. A police officer with training is perfectly capable of advancing that opinion if the matter came to court. I am not so sure that that is true of a traffic warden. I wish to press the Minister to be more explicit as to what training will be given before these extra powers are brought into effect.
Secondly, in England, though not yet in Scotland, I understand, some traffic warden services have been privatised. I would like to be reassured that none of the powers in the order will be transferred to privatised traffic warden services. These have proved somewhat unpopular in some parts of England.
My last point is this. As the Minister said, these powers are permissive to chief constables. It is therefore possible that we could have different police forces in Scotland implementing these powers differently. This could cause some difficulty where people who are used to police officers having the powers in one area of Scotland travel to another area where traffic wardens have the powers. If there is a case for the powers, they should be introduced uniformly across the country and not in a piecemeal manner in different areas where they could give rise to confusion and some public anxiety. I hope that the Minister feels that these are reasonable questions I raise.

The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the order. I am particularly pleased that it will enable the police to concentrate on other areas of their activities.
As the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, said, it is important that wardens receive extra training to carry out these functions. Can the Minister say what the extra cost will be and whether it will be recouped from the extra fines raised? I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, about the order being voluntary. Why 1208 is this so? Why is it not mandatory? Can the Minister explain whether this is the situation in the rest of the United Kingdom?

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, these new powers have not been entered into lightly. He will be aware that in Scotland police forces have traditionally been reluctant to increase the powers of traffic wardens in areas which they feel should remain within the domain of the police. It was not until four years after the Functions of Traffic Wardens (Scotland) Order 1971 came into operation that police forces reviewed their opposition to its implementation. The training of wardens is a matter for the police and for chief constables. That should give the noble Lord some assurance.
The order is permissive and it will be for chief constables to decide whether they wish to introduce the powers in their areas. Despite the concerns of the noble Lord, it is better to go with a tradition of pragmatism and flexibility in this matter, and I would rely on the good sense of the Scottish police forces.
On the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, our belief is that there will be no extra costs. In fact, what costs there might be should be defrayed by the fact that the wardens controlled by the police will allow the police to undertake duties of greater priority. Therefore, overall, there should be a saving to the public purse.
As to the noble Earl's more general question, I believe that the position in Scotland follows that in the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of the proposed new powers. On the basis of experience to date, we believe that the new powers in Scotland will be a welcome and beneficial advance.

§ Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, will he deal with my point about the franchised or privatised warden service for parking in London? Is it contemplated that such powers will be available in Scotland?

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
My Lords, I am not aware of any plans to emulate what has taken place in London. I believe that it is possible in Scotland for local authorities to hire people on parking attendant duties. It would also be possible for them to recoup some of the expenses. But I hope and trust that, with the good sense of Scottish authorities and with the advice of the police, the powers will be used in a practical and positive way rather than in the punitive way the noble Lord implies.
On Question, Motion agreed to.