§ 3.11 p.m.
§ Lord Annanasked Her Majesty's Government:
What progress has been made in finding a more suitable site for the statue of Sir Walter Raleigh, at present standing in front of the Ministry of Defence in Whitehall.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, under the Public Statues (Metropolis) Act 1854, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport must approve the erection and relocation of statues in London. The Act says that, because of that role, he cannot involve himself in the development of such proposals. As I indicated in reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, on 379 15th December, the then Secretary of State for National Heritage approved in principle Madam Speaker's proposal to move the statue of Sir Walter Raleigh to St. Margaret's churchyard. We know that in May last year Westminster City Council refused planning permission for the specific site proposed, but I understand that discussions are continuing about an alternative location in the vicinity of the church.
§ Lord AnnanMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that fascinating reply. Does he recollect the story of Sir Walter Raleigh at a banquet? His son was on his left-hand side and gave vent to an ill-bred remark, whereupon Sir Walter fetched him an enormous box on the ear. His son, not wishing to strike his father, turned to the person on his left-hand side and boxed his ear, saying, "Box about and it will come to my father anon". I wonder whether that is what is happening in Whitehall, where there is a well-established principle of passing the buck in which, of course, the Department for Culture's file goes to the Ministry of Defence, which then passes it to the Foreign Office. The Foreign Office then passes it back to the Ministry of Defence with comments and then it comes back to the Department for Culture. It may go from there to many of the other departments for which the noble Lord speaks so eloquently and remarkably well in this House. Can he say whether there has been any progress on this matter at all? By "progress" I mean putting another proposal to Westminster City Council to see whether its planning committee will turn that one down as well.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, I am delighted to have a completely new story from the noble Lord in place of the feeble jokes about smoking which we had on the last occasion when this matter was discussed. There has been no passing the buck between departments. As regards central government, the issue is only for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Other participants are, of course, the City of Westminster, the Dean of Westminster and Madam Speaker. If no solution is found to the problem which Madam Speaker and the Dean of Westminster are addressing, we would be open to other suggestions.
The Earl of CarlisleMy Lords, does the Minister agree that the most suitable resting place for this fine statue of the great statesman, Sir Walter Raleigh, is Old Palace Yard, where he was executed on 29th October 1618? As your Lordships will know, Old Palace Yard is the area near the Jewel Tower, and between it and Millbank. Failing that suggestion receiving permission, perhaps the noble Lord, with his great desire to see London give its treasures out to the regions, will consider Budleigh Salterton as a better place, because that is where Sir Walter Raleigh was born? Finally, will the noble Lord see placed on the statue the final words of Sir Walter Raleigh,
So the heart he right, it is no matter which way the head lies"?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, the choice of St. Margaret's is based on the fact that Sir Walter Raleigh is buried there, which seems rather kinder than choosing the site of his execution.
§ Lord AnnanMy Lords, perhaps I may ask one last question. The statue could be placed at the back of the Foreign Office between the statues of Lord Clive and Lord Mountbatten, but it would be overshadowed by neither. Does the Minister agree that that would be quite a suitable place, in that Sir Walter Raleigh gave the Foreign Office, or its equivalent in those times, a great deal of trouble, so the Foreign Office could now look down on him?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that suggestion. It is the case that the statue of Sir Walter Raleigh was planned in the first instance to be erected outside the National Gallery where the statue of King James is at the moment. The problem was that Westminster City Council refused planning permission some 40 years ago. All possible locations will be considered.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, as the spokesman for the Department for Culture in this House, can the noble Lord tell us what a "buck" is in this context? Is it an angulate mammal; a well-dressed young man of the early 19th century, or is it an American dollar?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, as I understand it, in Whitehall the "buck" is usually black and white and on paper.