§ 3.12 p.m.
§ Lord Taverneasked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they plan to hold a referendum on British membership of EMU before the next general election.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn)My Lords, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make a Statement in another place when their Recess is over.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, it would be quite inappropriate for your Lordships to think that I had laid any stress on the word "their". The Statement will set out the Government's position on the single currency and United Kingdom membership in 1999.
§ Lord TaverneMy Lords, have the Government really thought through the referendum issue? Are they aware that there will seldom be a more favourable time 725 to secure a commitment in principle to Britain joining a monetary union than when the Government are popular and the Opposition are divided? As someone who wishes the Government well, are they aware that the Prime Minister is in real danger of following the path of his predecessor, who started with warm words about Europe, creating great expectations and then, through a failure to face hard choices—the Prime Minister's own words—and a failure of vision and leadership, Britain was left on the sidelines where it has no influence to help to decide issues which will affect this country in a wide and important sense?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, the noble Lord spoke of a conjunction of circumstances, with the Government being popular and the Opposition divided. Of course that is a conjunction of circumstances which I expect to continue for many years. What the Prime Minister said in the clearest of terms—I am able to remind your Lordships of it—on 17th March was,
If the issue does arise in the next Parliament—and we say if—there is a triple lock in place: first the Cabinet must agree"—
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, I hope that I am not intruding into private grief on the Opposition Benches. The Prime Minister continued,
second, Parliament must give its backing; most of all, the people must have the final say in a referendum".That is the Government's policy.
§ Lord BarnettMy Lords—
§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard)My Lords, this is not a position in which I wish to find myself. We have five minutes. I assume that there is room for both my noble friends. Perhaps in the interests of solidarity one will go first.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, irrespective of the terms of the referendum and of the date on which it might or might not be held, will the noble Lord give the House an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will make representations to the European Commission to stop broadcasting misleading and tendentious propaganda on this subject coming down on one side only, bearing in mind in particular that the British taxpayer out of the Consolidated Fund is paying 12.5 per cent. of the Commission's extensive expenditure in this entirely unauthorised field?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, in this difficult area one always wants to avoid being misleading and in particular to avoid being tendentious. I am sure that the Government will have well in mind the necessity for the British public to be fully informed of diverse views—which I believe there to be—upon this important question for our country's future.
§ Lord BarnettMy Lords, recognising the difficulty that my noble friend will have in answering this 726 question, I ask him to convey a message from me to our right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tell him that it would be appalling—if the reports are accurate—if he had it in mind to rule out all options of entering a single currency in this Parliament, which would inevitably mean that we would not be able to enter until after a referendum in 2002, 2003 or 2004. In those circumstances, given that our right honourable friend the Prime Minister wants to be a leader in Europe, does he recognise—this is my message to the Chancellor—that it would be impossible to achieve that and to have any influence whatever if he ruled out for all time in this Parliament the opportunity to join a single currency?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, as the Home Office Minister in your Lordships' House I am well accustomed to taking messages to my superiors. I am happy to tell the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, that I shall, of course, transmit his well intentioned message to my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. As to any possible suggestion that the influence of Britain in Europe is declining, I utterly and entirely repudiate it. Quite the opposite is true. If one travels on any kind of ministerial business in Europe, one finds that quite the opposite is true. Our colleagues in Europe look to the present Government as a beacon, to coin a phrase.
§ Lord Jenkins of HillheadMy Lords, will the noble Lord accept on behalf of the Government that, if the Government are to maintain their command over events which they have hitherto shown on the whole, it is highly desirable that on this central issue they adopt a clear-cut and bold policy and, if necessary, a policy involving some risk, rather than fall into the position—which was the hallmark of the previous government's European policy—of being puffed by every breath of wind?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, I recognise the contradistinction which the noble Lord points to with his enormous expertise in these matters. There is no prospect of this Government—united as we are on these important questions—falling into the habits of the former government. I entirely accept that such habits did this country's interests infinite harm and the present Prime Minister and the present Chancellor have the responsibility to try to put that right.
§ Lord Mackay of ArdbrecknishMy Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord on being recruited to the Treasury team when it comes to the European currency. I suggest to his colleagues that his safer pair of hands might be better than those of the Chancellor, especially over the past few weeks.
Will the Minister make it clear—are the present Government as committed as the previous government were to giving the British people the fundamental choice as to whether or not they wish to enter a single currency? Is that still the policy of the Government?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, it is my fault, for not reading the briefing out clearly enough. This is what the Prime Minister said on 17th March:
If the issue does arise in the next Parliament—and we say if—there is a triple lock in place: first the Cabinet must agree; second, Parliament must give its backing; most of all, the people must have the final say in a referendum".I hope I have made that plain.