NATO-Russia Permanent Joint Council (Hansard, 17 November 1997)

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, the NATO-Russia Permanent Joint Council met at foreign Minister level in New York on 26th September. Good progress was made with NATO-Russia relations, on co-operation in Bosnia and on peacekeeping more generally. The Permanent Joint Council also agreed its future work programme, which will include military co-operation and co-operation to work against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. The Permanent Joint Council will next meet at defence Minister level in Brussels on 3rd December and at foreign Minister level on 16th or 17th December. The work of preparing for these meetings is carried forward by permanent representatives at NATO.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that most helpful reply. Does he agree that, as the expansion of NATO goes forward, the importance of such meetings cannot be overemphasised if we are to build positive relationships with Russia?
In view of the various elements in sound security policy, can my noble friend the Minister say anything more to the House about what was discussed with the Russians on the matter of arms control, on the issue of nuclear, biological and chemical terrorism and on the proliferation of means of delivery of nuclear, biological and chemical capability? Can my noble friend also tell the House whether there was an opportunity to discuss the important issue of defence conversion in Russia, in view of the alarming social and economic significance of the defence industry in that country?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, many of the issues raised by my noble friend are appropriate for the agenda of the 361 defence Minister level discussions in December, although a final agenda has not yet been reached. Clearly, one of the main purposes of the NATO-Russia body is to deal with the legacy of environmental, military and technical problems remaining from earlier Soviet military activity.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, can the Minister tell us how far Her Majesty's Government see the NATO-Russia dialogue developing? Many half promises were made during the first six months of this year. Russia is to have permanent representation in NATO, and NATO is to have permanent representation in Moscow. Do we see ourselves moving towards a situation where Russia becomes, in effect, a half member of NATO within the next 10 to 15 years?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, 10 or 15 years is a long time. At present there are no plans and no requests for Russia to join NATO. The arrangements with Russia are entirely separate from the NATO structure and entirely different from the whole process of enlargement of NATO. The noble Lord is absolutely right: the total approach to security in Europe and beyond requires not only the strengthening of NATO but also the strengthening and the institutionalisation of the arrangements with Russia. That is what the NATO/Russia agreement is about.

§ Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, what discussions have taken place in the joint council on Russia's relationships with the republics of the former Soviet Union given the challenge posed by the rising tide of Islam in Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kirghizstan and Turkmenistan and by the Taleban movement in Afghanistan? What co-operation should there be between these countries and NATO to help resolve these tensions?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, as regards the terms mentioned by the noble Baroness, those discussions have not taken place. However, there is the intention that relations between NATO and the central Asian republics should be improved, and indeed any stability in the NATO/Russia situation would help in the relationships with the central Asian republics.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, as a matter of logic, will my noble friend explain to your Lordships the following? If Russia and the other eastern nations join NATO, what would the point of NATO be?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, I think I implied that any prospect of Russia joining NATO was rather a long way off. The point of the enlargement of NATO, and of bringing in central and eastern European countries to either membership or a relationship with NATO, is to provide security and stability for the whole of the European area and to provide a combined European approach to military problems in general. As compared 362 with the polarisation of Europe during the period of the Cold War, these are positive and effective moves towards greater security for all the peoples of Europe.

The Earl of Carlisle
My Lords, will the Minister assure us—

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords—

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard)
My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal.

The Earl of Carlisle
My Lords, will the Minister assure us that at the next December meeting of the joint council Her Majesty's Government will invite the Russian Federation to sign a negotiated border treaty with Estonia? Will Her Majesty's Government also point out that the eastern European nations have no desire to join a Russian security organisation and that any pressure on those nations, in particular the three Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, will be regarded as counter productive?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, the views of the central and eastern European states, in particular the Baltic states, are well known to Russia and to the west. We respect those positions. As regards the agenda of the December meeting, I have already said that it is yet to be finalised, but some of these issues will undoubtedly be touched on.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that NATO already has no purpose other than its own survival?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, I do not accept the terms outlined by the noble Lord. Clearly the original purpose of NATO has changed. NATO's role now is to ensure the survival of us all in a more stable world. As I said earlier, the end of the Cold War period has now been replaced by a situation where NATO can bring in the countries of both eastern and western Europe and engage in a more stable relationship with Russia and other peripheral areas of the European continent.