All Work Test (Hansard, 13 November 1997)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Social Security (Baroness Hollis of Heigham)
My Lords, as your Lordships would expect, we are looking at all aspects of provision for sick and disabled people as part of our wider review of social security. Naturally, this also means that we are reviewing the appropriateness of the all work test as we develop our welfare to work programmes.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. While I understand that, like her noble friend, she cannot anticipate the results of a review, is she aware that there is considerable scepticism about the possibility of medical diagnosis by filling in a form? Would she agree that asking people to answer "yes" or 248 "no" when they suffer from a fluctuating condition causes considerable problems if the only honest answer is "sometimes"?

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, yes. I take on board the point made by the noble Earl. It is one of the reasons for reconsidering the all work test. As part of our welfare to work strategy, we wish to focus on what disabled people have the capacity to do and not on their incapacities. A test which scores for lifting a bag of potatoes or putting a hat on yourhead is not the best indicator of whether you can work at a word processor. As the noble Earl and I argued when the Bill was going through your Lordships' House, the test defines what people cannot do rather than what they can.
The all work test was reconsidered in the spring in order to take greater account of fluctuating conditions. We need to assess whether it is fully appropriate in the situation described by the noble Earl and we would welcome feedback on its use and appropriateness. Therefore,I am happy to assure the noble Earl that the all work test will be reviewed.

§ Lord Ashley of Stoke
My Lords, does my noble friend know of a single disabled person who regards the test as fair, because I do not? However, I do know some decent disabled people who are anxious to work but feel guilty about applying for benefits because of the test. Is she aware that the test may be working well as a cost-cutting exercise at the expense of disabled people. but that it is not working well as a fair and equitable test?

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, I share my noble friend's anxiety. Approximately 80 per cent. of all disabled people who take the test go on to receive incapacity benefit. Of the 20 per cent. who fail the test, if I may use that expression, and do not receive incapacity benefit about half appeal and of those about half succeed. One of the more worrying aspects is that of the people who go on to receive the jobseeker's allowance, having lost incapacity benefit, only about 7,000 ever find a job. That is why the Government are determined to press ahead with the welfare to work strategy, as disabled people wish.

§ Lord Higgins
My Lords, can the Minister tell us why we no longer have a Minister for disabled people specifically to look after their interests? In relation to the review, does she recall the Government's response to the report of the Social Security Advisory Committee on the disabled, which stated that there were too few to bother about and the issue was too complicated? What is the position of a lone parent receiving incapacity benefit who fails to meetthe all work test?

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, there are Ministers for disabled people in the Department for Education and Employment. However, the Government are determined that there should be a Minister within the Department of Social Security who has the responsibility for disability benefits. That happens to be me, and I am privileged to be asked to do so. Therefore, 249 at the core of two important departments are Ministers working together in order to ensure that the rights, opportunities and benefits of disabled people are properly regarded.
As regards the position of lone parents receiving disability benefit, if I have understood the noble Lord's question correctly, we estimate that only 15 per cent. of lone parents sufferfrom a disability and they are entitled to income support with a disability premium if they soqualify.

§ Lord Addington
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that any new test will be driven by individual needs and not by overall spending constraints? Only if individual needs are the primary concern will many of the problems that have been pointed out today be overcome.

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, the problem with the all work test was not that it was designed to cut spending. Indeed, 80 per cent. of people went on to receive incapacity benefit. My belief—and it has been reinforced by all the research that I have seen since crossing the Floor—is that the problem with the test was that it defined people by what they could not do in terms of manual dexterity and functional ability and not in terms of their capacity to enter the labour market and be employed. In today's world, disabled people tell us that they want help to enter the world of work, part-time or full-time, and we are determined to be able to offer them that.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is difficult to devise a substitute all work test since there is not a single activity known as work?

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, I am confident that the noble Earl would be one of the first to submit feedback on how he would define work, including unwaged work in this House.