§ 2.59 p.m.
§ Lord Ellenboroughasked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they have any proposals for a referendum to be held on the establishment of a parliament for England.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn)My Lords, we have no plans to establish a separate English parliament or to hold a referendum on the matter.
§ Lord EllenboroughMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that rather predictable reply. Does he recognise that the unity of the UK is imperilled by growing English awareness of and resentment at the discrimination shown by the Government? Why is England alone not offered any form of comparable home government? Why was England not consulted about any other aspects of devolution in other parts of the UK? Why are the Government treating England not so much as a nation but as a group of regions?
Can the Minister say whether, once a Scottish parliament has been established and the Welsh assembly set up, assuming that it ever is, it is the Government's intention that there should be 110 Scots and Welsh MPs voting on English domestic affairs, not just for this Parliament but for the whole of the next Parliament also?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, I am glad that my Answer was predictable. It may derive from the proposition that I do not believe that at the last election the political platform of any party put before the electorate was that there should be a parliament for England. It bears repetition that this Government are fully committed to the continued integrity of the United Kingdom. We believe firmly and strongly that the devolved—
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneAssemblies!
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, who always helps me on these occasions. We believe that the devolved assemblies willcontribute to that continued integrity. England is in no way being disregarded or overlooked.
§ Lord Ewing of KirkfordMy Lords, will the Minister accept that I share his commitment to the integrity of the United Kingdom? As a Scotsman, I ask a Welshman why the English want a referendum on a parliament for England when they already have one.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, as a Welshman replying to a Scotsman, I cannot pretend to understand the unfathomable depths of the English mind.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, will the noble Lord—
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, perhaps we should take a question from the Cross Benches.
§ Lord HyltonMy Lords, is it not the English regions rather than England as a whole which stand in need of democratic institutions to control their numerous quangos and so forth?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, there is a vast amount to be done to control the quangos set up and abused by our predecessors—if I may respectfully suggest it. That is why the Government have indicated their intention in due time to hold referendums on establishing directly elected regional assemblies in England, as the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, so rightly observes.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, do the Government intend to go ahead with the Welsh Assembly in view of the fact that they received only a 0.6 per cent. yes vote and only half the people voted?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, it was not a 0.6 per cent. yes vote; it was 50.3 per cent. I hate to be careful about these things. It was perfectly plain, as was anticipated by many of us, that the Welsh electorate, being calm, unflustered and unhurried, took a mature decision to indicate what was appropriate; namely, a vote yes. I am pleased to think that the Conservative Opposition will be fighting the election so that they may have Conservative members in the new successful Welsh assembly.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, is the Minister—
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that, before we contemplate the setting up of another parliament, it would be wise to make sure that our own Parliament in Westminster ceases the process of losing its powers, which it has been doing for many years? Would it not be wise to restore some power to Westminster?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, it is right that both Houses of Parliament are susceptible to useful reform, and we have that very much in mind.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, is the Minister—
§ Lord Mackay of ArdbrecknishMy Lords, perhaps I may help the Minister by reminding him that his own Government have decided that the Scottish body ought to be a parliament and not an assembly. Secondly, if we are to have referendums for various bodies to be set up in the regions of England, can we see the detailed legislation before the referendums and not have weeks passing with no sign of a Bill as is the case in respect of the Scottish and Welsh referendums?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, these referenda, or referendums, as people will keep calling them—wrongly, I believe—must be looked at with great care. I am not sure whether it is the policy of the Conservative Opposition to have a referendum on the Treaty of Amsterdam. They have been a little silent on the matter lately. I take the noble Lord's point and, as always, will be eager to co-operate with him and the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, whom I should have welcomed earlier as he will be dealing with constitutional and devolution matters in your Lordships' House. It is a great pleasure to all of us, myself in particular, to be able to welcome him.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, is the Minister—
§ Lord Simon of GlaisdaleMy Lords
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, my noble friend Lord Dean has been trying to ask a question for some time. Perhaps we can then move on to the next Question.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, is the Minister aware that I feel it a great privilege to be one of the few Englishmen allowed to ask a question today on an English matter? Is the Minister also aware that I am one of those who look askance at the suggestion of holding a referendum in England on devolution, bearing in mind the shambles in Wales when only 50 per cent. voted, producing an extremely narrow majority after hyperactivity from the minority in Wales who were in favour? If the Government have any intention of holding a referendum in England, will the Minister do his best to dissuade them and persuade them to do away with this very expensive toy?
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, I am aware that the noble Lord looks askance at various things on various occasions. I do not agree with his description of the result in Wales. It was a majority of 50.3 per cent. after a very deeply considered argument and debate which has extended for about 50 years.
§ Lord Simon of GlaisdaleMy Lords—
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, we are in the 17th minute and we should move on to the next Question.
§ Lord Simon of GlaisdaleMy Lords, would not
§ Lord CarterMy Lords, perhaps the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, would not mind giving way. We are now in the 17th minute of Question Time and it is time to move on to the third Question.