HL Deb 06 November 1997 vol 582 cc1478-80

3.40 p.m.

Lord Campbell of Croy

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they intend to encourage and support the system of share fishing now widespread among the larger vessels in the British fishing fleet.

Lord Carter

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government recognise the valuable contribution that share fishermen make to the UK fishing industry and the great challenges fishermen face in providing regular supplies of healthy food for the nation. We will continue to take account of share fishermen's unique employment status and recognise that any new working time measures should reflect the special nature of their working practices.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply and for the written reply last week on the European Commission's latest attempt to include British fishermen in its working time restrictions. Will the Government now press upon the Commission that those restrictions are wholly inappropriate for self-employed share fishermen, who, unlike their counterparts in other European fleets, do not have employers, employees or trade unions, and that fishermen's working time is governed by the weather and the fish, which do not observe regular timetables in their habits?

Lord Carter

My Lords, the noble Lord is correct. The European Commission published a White Paper in July in which it dealt with what are called "excluded sectors" from the working time directive, which of course includes fishermen. It is still not clear whether it is proposed to extend working time controls to share fishermen, because, as the noble Lord said, they are different from employed fishermen. It may be helpful to quote from the Commission's White Paper. Under "Criteria for Action", it states: The criteria should not place unreasonable burdens on firms, in particular small firms, and should take account of specific characteristics of the sectors such as share fishing". So the problem is recognised.

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy

My Lords, if they have not already done so, what steps will the Government take to put an end to the wicked and wasteful practice of discarding fish surplus to the allowable catch?

Lord Carter

My Lords, the noble Lady is correct. Her question is a little wide of the Question on the Order Paper, but in the reform to the CFP which we propose we are intent to ensure that that problem is dealt with. Perhaps I may make a remark that I have not made before—but the CFP makes the CAP look like a beacon of sweet reason and light.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

My Lords, may I assume that the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, is on a fact-finding mission on a fishing vessel so that he can learn, as my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy said, that one cannot impose on a fishing fleet the kind of working time directive that one can on land-based organisations? Will the Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms assure me that the Government will stand firm with other European member states with large fishing industries against applying that directive to fishing? Will he further assure me that, if that does not succeed, we shall stand firm on the basis that share fishermen are clearly self-employed?

Lord Carter

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am in fact the departmental Whip for MAFF, as I think he knows, which is why I am answering the Question. The first point about sea fishermen is correct. The working time directive will apply to sea fishermen. It is equally clear that a great deal of negotiation is needed before there is any chance of it being applied to share fishermen. I quoted the White Paper. We are not the only country concerned, and we are clear about the problems that would be faced were the directive to be applied.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, if, as my noble friend said, the CAP is a beacon of light compared with the CFP, would it not be wise and better for us to repatriate the CFP and perhaps also the CAP?

Lord Carter

My Lords, I suppose the first lesson to learn is that one does not try to make a joke in this House. My noble friend and others have suggested that we should withdraw from the CFP. That is wholly unrealistic. We need a common fisheries policy, and co-operation with other member states is essential given the over-capacity of the fishing fleets and the fact that fish do not respect national boundaries. Perhaps I may for once almost agree with my noble friend. With its enlargement the EU will stretch from the Arctic Circle to the Mediterranean and from the Atlantic to Poland. When Poland joins it will stretch to Russia. I think that some form of subsidiarity for the CAP is almost inevitable.

Lord Monkswell

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the main elements behind the working time directive is health and safety? While the directive may not apply to self-employed people or share fishermen, surely there is a need for a public education programme to ensure that those people who may not be covered by the directive recognise the benefits of limiting their working hours.

Lord Carter

My Lords, my noble friend is right. I am always surprised that when one reads out to employers who are not familiar with it the components of a working time directive, they say that that is what any good employer would do: minimum daily and weekly rest periods; annual paid holidays; a limit of 48 hours on the average time that employees can be required to work in a week, although member states can provide for people to work for more than 48 hours by voluntary agreement; and restrictions on night work.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that safety is of course essential and important, but that on fishing vessels it is achieved by other means and not by a rigid working timetable?

Lord Carter

My Lords, yes.