Organophosphates (Hansard, 5 November 1997)

§ The Countess of Mar
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will convene a high level, interdepartmental committee with the remit to consider all the current evidence on the testing, licensing, use and disposal of organophosphorus chemicals and their effects on humans and the environment, and to make recommendations.

§ The Parliamentary Secretary, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Donoughue)
My Lords, the existing advisory committees already provide a considerable level of scrutiny and advice to Ministers. There is close liaison and overlapping membership between the Advisory Committee on Pesticides, the Veterinary Products Committee, the Committee on Safety of Medicines, and other associated committees. The Government attach the highest importance to ensuring that the current interchange of information and scientific expertise continues and is made available to all those who have an interest. In addition, a group of officials from relevant departments will formally monitor and co-ordinate the information relating to organophosphorus chemicals and will report regularly to Ministers.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that this is not the first time that I have asked such a Question and I am extremely grateful to him for that encouraging Answer. Does the Minister appreciate that not only are the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Department of Health involved, but that the Department of the Environment, the Department of Social Security, and the Ministry of Defence are also involved—and the Treasury is probably somewhere in all of this? Will the Minister use all his very obvious powers of persuasion to persuade officials that it is not too late for them to discard their defensive stance and that they should address the very real concerns of the sufferers that they should receive treatment and that any future damage should he prevented?

§ Lord Donoughue
My Lords, I thank the noble Countess. I assure her that we take this matter extremely seriously, and that the work of the relevant departments, which she mentioned, is being co-ordinated—I do not know whether the Treasury is aware of that. From my observations, there has been a notable move towards a more positive attitude on the part of officials in the department.

§ Baroness Park of Monmouth
My Lords, does the Minister remember that when we last discussed this subject he was sympathetic to the proposal that there should be an independent co-ordinator from outside all the departments concerned who should be of such stature as to be trusted by the veterans? Trust is still very lacking and I strongly support the noble Countess in urging the Government to do all that they can to regain that trust. May I suggest that the idea of having an interdepartmental co-ordinator of stature—an idea to which the Minister was sympathetic when it was discussed—should be pursued?

§ Lord Donoughue
Yes, my Lords, I recall that being raised in debate and I was, and am, sympathetic to the idea. We are continuing to consider that proposal but I believe that what the co-ordinating committee establishes will produce the evidence that Ministers require in order to take the necessary decisions. We are intent on re-establishing trust in our management of this very important matter.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a serious problem of head lice among schoolchildren throughout the country, that the shampoo most suitable for dealing with the problem seems to be that containing organophosphates, and that many parents and teachers are therefore worried? I agree with the noble Countess about the importance of establishing a co-ordinating committee and congratulate the Minister on his work to establish an interdepartmental committee.

§ Lord Donoughue
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her kind remarks. Dealing with head lice is more a matter for the Committee on Safety of Medicines and the Department of Health. However, I advise the noble Baroness that on the information that I have it is not scientifically established that there is a serious threat to children's health. Since 1976 when the organophosphate shampoo was introduced, I think that there have been 29 cases of adverse effects and the majority of those were thought to be due to allergic reactions. We are, however, aware of the problem and shall continue to keep an eye on it.

§ Baroness Anelay of St. Johns
My Lords, has the Minister had an opportunity to read in full the judgment given in Hong Kong in July in the Phillips case? If so, what is his assessment of its impact on the Government's view of any link between the use of OPs and chronic ill health?

§ Lord Donoughue
My Lords, I have not read the report in full but I am aware of it and its implications. That is a matter for the court. Our work is conducted on the scientific assessment of the bodies that provide us with advice. A great deal of work has been put in place. A number of research projects are under way. We are tightening up the codes of conduct on the use of organophosphates and extending the use of certificates of competence, which have been extremely valuable in training those who use these substances. The root of the problem is those who use organophosphates. It is very important that we help them to use these substances in the correct way.

The Earl of Clanwilliam
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in view of the fact that the Question of the noble Countess includes the word "environment", attention should be drawn to the symbol scheme of the Soil Association, which has outlawed the use of organophosphates by all organic farmers? Since its inception they have suffered no loss of productivity from that injunction. Perhaps that information will be of use to the committee.

§ Lord Donoughue
My Lords, I am aware of that. Many farmers may well take note of the information that the noble Earl has provided.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, the noble Lord has well illustrated the problems that have arisen in the past. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, he said that he believed her concern was the responsibility of 1377 COT. We have always come up against the business of passing the buck from one to the other. I should like to press the Minister on the question of the effects on children. No scientific experiments have been carried out on children, because they are forbidden. There is very little knowledge about the psycho-neurological effects of these pesticides on children; yet we hear more and more about children's behavioural problems. Will the Minister address that subject in particular?

§ Lord Donoughue
My Lords, indeed I will.