The Parthenon Sculptures (Hansard, 19 May 1997)

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, we have no plans to reconsider the decision announced by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for National Heritage that the Parthenon sculptures should remain at the British Museum.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on his appointment and assure him that I understand that the Answers that he gives are necessarily those of the Government. Is he aware—he 140 must be because I told him so a short while ago—that less than a year ago 109 Members of another place signed an Early Day Motion supporting the return of the marbles to Greece; that 89 of those Members were Labour Members; and that 10 are Members of the Government? May I suggest—

Noble Lords
No!

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, perhaps I may ask suggestively that those 10 members should form a delegation to the Prime Minister to ask him to reconsider the matter. Does my noble friend recognise that the greatest loyalty one can extend to a friend is to seek to put him right when he makes a mistake?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for those somewhat barbed congratulations. I am afraid that if he seeks early to drive a wedge between me and my colleagues he will riot succeed. We acknowledge that there is a strong emotional case for the return of the Elgin Marbles—the Parthenon sculptures. However, having looked at the matter again, the Government recognise that it would not be feasible to return them because they are the property of the British Museum and confiscatory legislation would be required to remove them. Nor would it be sensible because the issue of the return of works of art to their country of origin is much wider than that relating to the Elgin Marbles.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that the survival of these lovely creations results from their being taken over by this country and that it is therefore very important that they should remain here?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the noble Lord is right that the marbles have survived because they have been kept free from the damaging atmosphere of outdoor Athens. However, as he will recognise, the Greek proposal is that they should be returned to a museum where, presumably, that protection would continue.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that such a move would be an unwelcome precedent? If we started to return works of art to other countries, there would not be much left in our museums and galleries.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, my noble friend is right—and I have been waiting for 14 years to say that! It would be an absurdity if great national collections around the world consisted only of works of art originating from the country in which they were located. That would be damaging not only for art history and education but for the appreciation of all forms of art.

Lord Lucas
My Lords, will the Minister accept that it gives all of us on these Benches the greatest possible pleasure to find him adorning the Front 141 Bench opposite? We have all in our time suffered a great deal of damage from his attacks and perhaps we may hope to return the compliment at some time in the future.
It also gives us great pleasure to note that the Government have not lost our marbles and, indeed, may show signs of retaining some of their own—at least for the moment. Can the Minister confirm unequivocally that the principle which underlies this decision will be applied to other works of art and that it is not a one-off decision?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his congratulation, which is somewhat less barbed than that of my noble friend Lord Jenkins—but only somewhat. I hope that I made it clear in my earlier answers that the issue of the return of all works of art to their country of origin is wider than the issue of the Parthenon sculptures. I believe that that gives the noble Lord the answer he seeks.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware—

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords—

Noble Lords
Cross-Bench!

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard)
My Lords, it may be time for a question from the Cross-Benches.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it would be dangerous to return the marbles to Athens because they were under attack by Turkish and Greek fire in the Parthenon when they were rescued and the volatile Greeks might easily start hurling bombs around again?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I do not believe that I should be tempted to make comparisons between the political situation in Greece in 1816 and that in 1997.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt. I did not see him because my eyesight is not very good. I agree with my noble friend that this is more than a local issue; it is an international issue. Is he aware of the existence of the international committee dealing with museums and of the general movement throughout the world to return stated objects which are carefully vetted to ensure that they are of great importance to the country of origin? Is he aware that Australia is returning objects to New Guinea; that France is returning objects to Algeria; and that North America is returning objects to South America? We alone are curmudgeons and it is about time we put that right. Our international reputation is at stake.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, my noble friend is right in saying that the issue is much wider 142 than the Parthenon sculptures. It is true that this is an international matter in the sense that UNESCO, which we will rejoin on 1st July this year—and I hope that my noble friend will recognise the value of that decision—is concerned with the conditions in which works of art may be returned to their country of origin. However, I believe that we should wait for international action, rather than taking a one-off decision of the kind proposed by my noble friend.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, I, without any barbs at all, congratulate the Minister. Does he agree that, if the principle of returning the Parthenon Marbles were accepted, every single tourist who went abroad might have to return his or her souvenirs bought in good faith?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, there are Questions on the Order Paper for later Answer about the return of works of art taken away from their country of origin in modern times. Perhaps we can have a more useful discussion on this matter at that time.