Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1997

HL Deb 14 March 1997 vol 579 cc567-85

12.30 p.m.

Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Baroness Denton of Wakefield) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 13th February be approved.

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1997, which was laid before the House on 13th February, be approved.

This is one in a series of financial orders covering Northern Ireland departments which come before the House each year. The draft order before us today authorises expenditure of £122 million for Northern Ireland departments for the current financial year. This is in addition to the £6,438 million voted by the House last June. The order also authorises the Vote-on-account of £2,941 million for 1997–98 to enable the services of Northern Ireland departments to continue until the 1997–98 main Estimates are brought before your Lordships later this year.

Before turning to the details of the Estimates, I should like to set them in the context of Northern Ireland's recent economic performance. Both official statistics and survey data show that the Northern Ireland economy remains in good health in almost every area. Indeed, despite the breakdown of the IRA ceasefire and the impact of the BSE crisis, all indicators suggest continued improvement in 1997. This is also reflected in the figures for those in employment and those out of work. The latest available figures as at September 1996 for the number of employees in employment in Northern Ireland now stands at 573,160, the highest September figure on record. This is coupled with a rate of seasonally adjusted unemployment of 9.2 per cent., its lowest level for over 16 years. I hope the House will forgive me if I take a little personal pleasure in the fact that this rate was 13 per cent. when I arrived and it is now down to 9.2 per cent.

This is encouraging, as are the main economic indicators, which once again show very positive results for the Province. The output of manufacturing and production industries continues to rise at a rate well above that achieved nationally. Over the past five years Northern Ireland's manufacturing sector has increased its output by almost 19 per cent.—more than twice the rate of growth achieved nationally. Over a similar period there has been a significant improvement in the Province's gross domestic product relative to the United Kingdom. Of particular note is the fact that over the year to 1995 Northern Ireland's gross domestic product per capita increased relative to the United Kingdom's, while that of both Scotland and Wales decreased. It would perhaps be a remark of some prejudice to say that this does not surprise me. Allied to this there are some very favourable survey results from the local business community. Over the past year, survey evidence has shown that Northern Ireland firms experienced increased profits, greater exports and growing order books. Indeed, forecasts for the coming year are equally bright, with employment growth, a reduction in unemployment and strong rises in output expected.

All of this clearly demonstrates the impressive achievements of the Northern Ireland economy and those who contribute to it. I am confident that this performance will continue to he sustained. However, continued violence could compromise the Province's bright economic future and reverse many of the successes we have seen.

With your Lordships' permission, I now turn to the main items in the Estimates, starting with the Department of Agriculture. In Vote 1, a net increase of some £0.6 million is required. This includes some £0.3 million for national back-up aid to EU fishing projects, £0.3 million to fund additional commitments under the farm and conservation grants scheme and £0.2 million to meet ex-gratia compensation payments to sheep and stickler cow producers which were disadvantaged due to a misinterpretation of EU quota regulations. The increases are partially offset by savings in other areas.

In Vote 2, covering local support measures, a net increase of £6.3 million is sought. This includes £3.7 million for payments made from the civil contingencies fund for the 24 to 30 months bull slaughter scheme and for increased expenditure to compensate for outbreaks of animal diseases, including brucellosis, salmonella and Newcastle disease. An increase of some £1.4 million, represents the carry forward of running cost underspends from 1995–96 to 1996–97, while £1.1 million is for health and safety work. Increased expenditure is partially offset by easements elsewhere within the Vote.

I turn to the Department of Economic Development, where token increases of £1,000 are sought in all three Votes. In Vote 1, some £2.6 million is sought by the Industrial Development Board for site acquisition, development and building works at Springvale in West Belfast. Some £2 million is required to meet increased claims for marketing grant support and legal costs, while a further £2 million is required to meet contractual commitments in respect of aircraft sales financing and support for the shipbuilding industry, both very important to the Province. The increases are offset by increased receipts and reduced requirements elsewhere within the Vote.

In Vote 2, a token increase of £1,000 is also sought. The major element is receipts from the sale of shares in Northern Ireland Electricity and the residual associated costs. These costs are being met out of the dividend payments and the proceeds from the sale of the shares.

Finally, in Vote 3, a token increase of £1,000 is sought by the Training and Employment Agency. An increase of £0.7 million is for capital expenditure on training facilities. Offsetting savings have been declared elsewhere within the Vote.

Turning to the Office for the Regulation of Electricity and Gas, formerly the Office of Electricity Regulation for Northern Ireland, an increase of some £0.4 million is sought. This increase is to cover expenditure by the Director General of Gas, a new statutory appointment, and for consultancy costs incurred in the preparation of OFREG's submission on NIE's price control to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission.

I now turn to the Department of the Environment, where a net increase of £5.1 million is sought in Vote 1. Some £8.0 million is for roads maintenance and capital, while some £3.1 million is for additional compensation payments to Northern Ireland railways. These increases are partially offset by increased receipts and reduced requirements elsewhere within the Vote.

In Vote 2, covering housing, an increase of £10.5 million is sought. Some £7 million is to provide assistance to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, while £3.5 million is to provide private sector housing renovation grants. Gross housing expenditure in Northern Ireland is now expected to be about £608 million this year, an increase of £5 million over 1995–96.

In Vote 3, covering water and sewerage services, a net increase of some £2.5 million is sought. Some £3.3 million is for operational and capital requirements. This increase is also partially offset by additional receipts and reduced requirements elsewhere within the Vote.

In Vote 4, which covers environmental and other services, a net increase of £4.3 million is sought. Some £5.0 million is for regeneration related matters, £9.0 million represents the carry forward of running cost underspends from 1995–96 and some £6.0 million is for capital works on accommodation. This increased expenditure is largely offset by additional receipts of £11.6 million and a reduction of £4.0 million in matching funding for the EU peace and reconciliation programme.

Turning to the Department of Education, a net increase of £5.8 million is sought in Vote 1. This includes some £9.6 million for grants to education and library boards, mainly for maintenance, energy efficiency measures, rates revaluation, Irish medium education, making good arson damage, the fitting of seatbelts in school buses and the cross community contact scheme. Some £0.4 million is for integrated education, £1.3 million for capital works at colleges of education and £1.9 million for student support. The increases are partially offset by savings elsewhere within the Vote. Provision for further education incorporation is included in the Estimates and in the Vote on account for 1997–98. In Vote 2, an increase of £5.5 million is sought for the teachers' superannuation scheme.

I now turn to the Department of Health and Social Services, where a net increase of £50.6 million is sought in Vote 1 for expenditure on hospital, community health, personal social services, health and social services trusts, family health services and certain other services. This includes £14.7 million carried forward from 1995–96 under the end-year flexibility scheme; £3.5 million for hospital emergency admissions and haemophilia costs; £3 million for the family health service; and £20 million to enable trusts to repay trust debt remuneration, together with transfers to and from DHSS Vote 3 to realign provision following a reappraisal of functions within the department under a senior management review.

In Vote 3 a token increase of £1,000 is sought for certain miscellaneous health and personal social services costs to reflect the corresponding senior management review transfers to and from DHSS Vote 1; £0.8 million carried forward from 1995–96; and an additional £2.6 million in respect of the EU peace and reconciliation programme.

In Vote 4, a net increase of £8.3 million is sought. This includes £11.5 million for running cost, capital and other administration pressures in the department. These increases are partially offset by reductions elsewhere within the vote.

In Vote 5, covering social security administered by the social security agency, a token increase of £1,000 is sought. This is mainly to realign provision between the individual benefits and to take account of increased appropriations in aid in respect of recoveries from the Northern Ireland National Insurance Fund which finances expenditure on the contribution element of jobseeker's allowance.

In Vote 6, covering social security centrally administered by the Department of Health and Social Services, £10 million is sought. This is mainly due to increased expenditure on rent rebates and rent allowances, together with increased payments into the Northern Ireland National Insurance Fund in respect of the Treasury grant. These increases are partially offset by decreases in the Independent Living Fund, Social Fund and rates rebates.

Finally, in the Department of Finance and Personnel's Vote 2, an additional net amount of some £8.8 million is sought to cover superannuation and other allowances.

I hope that your Lordships have found that summary of the main components of the order helpful. We have no bottomless pockets or money-growing trees, but with the resources we have we endeavour to use our best abilities to work for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland. I commend the order to your Lordships.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 13th February be approved [12th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Baroness Denton of Wakefield.)

12.43 p.m.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, it is on occasions such as this that one realises the contrast between this House and the House of Commons because I see immediately that no votes are to be sought in this debate. It is completely different in the other place.

The Appropriation Order has been known for many years as the grievance order. Every Member of Parliament would bring matters affecting his constituency into the debate. I have had occasion to read the debate on the order in the other place and at the newly constituted Grand Committee on Northern Ireland which discussed public expenditure at its two sittings. I must say to the noble Baroness that however optimistic she may feel in presenting the order, there is great despair about it in many parts of Northern Ireland because of the proposed cuts which are to take place in the immediate future and over the next three years. I regret that there are not more speakers from Northern Ireland taking part in the debate. I question the cutbacks which have taken place in the ACE programmes which will do away with 2,000 jobs. They are not highly-skilled or over-paid jobs but they are a very necessary component of keeping young lads off the street and putting into work young men and women who otherwise would find it impossible to find employment. That proposed loss of 2,000 jobs will create a good deal of anger among those in Northern Ireland.

As regards the cutbacks in education, at present it appears that all the political parties in this House are continuing to lay great stress on education. The Conservatives, the Liberals and the Labour Party are all saying how necessary education is to the future welfare of this country whereas in Northern Ireland £55 million is to be taken out of the education budget. Altogether, there are to be cuts of £296 million over the next three years. Those cuts will affect every facet of life in Northern Ireland—education, employment, hospitals and social services departments. Therefore, there is no real reason to be optimistic about the future in Northern Ireland.

I realise that the noble Baroness has a very difficult position in Northern Ireland. She carries the onerous responsibility of the major departments—the Departments of Economic Development and Agriculture. Those two departments could very well be serviced by one person each rather than asking one person to deal with both departments at the same time.

I wish to speak about the vitally important matter of attitudes in Northern Ireland and the way in which the country is to be governed in the absence of either a parliament or an assembly being created there. The noble Baroness must feel very beleaguered. Over the past few years, since she took on her responsibilities, noble Lords on both sides of this House, and the Catholic and Protestant communities in Northern Ireland have all complimented the noble Baroness on the very understanding and compassionate way in which she has approached the problems of Northern Ireland. As a Conservative she has had to carry out the policies as dictated by the Conservative Government at Westminster. But in doing so she has displayed a realism and compassion that some of her predecessors have not shown over the past 20 years.

I know for a fact that the noble Baroness has travelled throughout Northern Ireland up and down the country and to places where it was very dangerous for a Minister of the Crown to go. That has happened even within the past two weeks. On many occasions, she has had to have police protection. But she felt that it was her duty to go to those areas in Northern Ireland and to speak to the people from the two communities to let them know that she had an interest in their well-being and the circumstances in which they live. That is agreed by all sections of the community in Northern Ireland. But if there has to be a Conservative Government and a Conservative Minister, then the noble Baroness, Lady Denton, has fulfilled that role in a most humane way. That is why, within the past two or three weeks, I have been absolutely amazed at what is happening in Northern Ireland.

Noble Lords may not have had their attention applied fully to events in that far-flung corner of the United Kingdom. Very little has appeared in the press here, but day after day the newspapers in Northern Ireland have been full of it. Since my wife died last year, I have had more time to concentrate on Northern Ireland. I visit the Province more regularly than I was able to do previously. On a recent visit I was absolutely amazed to read in press reports the tirade of abuse and vilification levelled at the noble Baroness, especially by an Irish newspaper known as the Irish News—a newspaper which supported me throughout my political life and for which I have always had enormous respect. But within the past month I have been very saddened to see how, day after clay, attacks are being made on the person, not the policy, of the noble Baroness.

On first reading these attacks three weeks ago, I was led to believe that thousands upon thousands of people in Northern Ireland were having sleepless nights wondering how to deal with the misdeeds of the noble Baroness. I thought to myself, "Well, I haven't heard this before, so I will make my own inquiries". I made many telephone calls and spoke to as many people as I possibly could, but none was having sleepless nights; indeed, they were all as offended as I was by the tirade of abuse being levelled at the noble Baroness. Up to that point, the noble Baroness had been receiving accolades for the tremendous efforts that she has put in towards developing the Northern Ireland economy.

At the beginning of the campaign press reports were saying that the noble Baroness was being forced into resigning. It was said, "Pressure is mounting on Baroness Denton to resign; she will not be able to withstand such pressure." I could not see where that pressure was coming from. So I made further inquiries and found out that two politicians, who are seeking election in Northern Ireland, were using this case, whatever it may have been, to what they hoped would be their political advantage.

I then read a report that Mr. Gerry Adams, the leader of Sinn Fein, an organisation closely allied to the IRA and one which has brought about such despair and tragedy in Northern Ireland, had called upon the noble Baroness to resign. Could that be called legitimate pressure? It came from someone who said that if he were elected he would not take his seat in the House of Commons and, indeed, who did not in fact take his seat when he was elected for West Belfast some years ago. The other people mounting the pressure were two of what I would refer to as "clerical pranksters". We have quite a few of them in Northern Ireland on both sides of the political and religious divide. Then we had a Father McMannus, who is a well-known political prankster and features largely in today's newspapers. He has decided to bring the case of the noble Baroness to the floor of the US Congress.

If I were to believe everything that I read in the Irish News about the noble Baroness, I would not be surprised to see the matter raised at the Security Council, no doubt to the sound of tom-tom drums. Indeed, the matter would receive grave attention around the campfires from Tonga in the Pacific to Matabeleland in Africa. That is what we are told to believe is happening to the reputation of the noble Baroness. But that is not the case. It is not the way that the people of Northern Ireland view the noble Baroness.

I should like to take a few moments to tell the House what this is all about. There is a little church in Drumcree in County Armagh. It is a church that, from now on, will be identified and remembered, not as a church, but as a symbol of confrontation and division throughout Northern Ireland—now, possibly this year, in a very dangerous way, and certainly in the years that lie ahead. In 1995, two of the office staff of the noble Baroness witnessed the confrontation at Drumcree which was being screened on television. One of the ladies was very upset because she saw her husband, who is a Northern Ireland policeman, forced into that confrontation. She made some comments about it. Another female member of the staff evidently took offence at the comments that were made by that girl as she saw her husband engaged in the confrontation. That immediately created an atmosphere; indeed, throughout Northern Ireland, Drumcree has brought about an atmosphere of bitterness, hatred and resentment unequalled over many years.

The situation in the office became such that it was not possible to contain it. One of the girls involved in the dispute was transferred to another department. Incidentally, she was a Catholic but her replacement was a Catholic, so there was nothing there on the part of the noble Baroness as regards being vindictive against one religion or another. The husband who was in the police was also a Catholic, even though his wife was a Protestant. So, again, the noble Baroness was not taking one religious side against the other. The girl who was transferred said that she would take her case to the Fair Employment Agency on the grounds that she had been dismissed because of sectarian differences. The Government did not defend the case, although I believe they should have done. We would then have heard both sides of the story and I would not be standing in the Chamber today telling your Lordships all about it. The girl received £10,000 by way of compensation and still maintained her job.

However, something else then happened. People in Northern Ireland saw this as a great stick with which to begin to beat the noble Baroness. The "Sir Humphreys" in the Northern Ireland Civil Service departments came on the scene. They had, on occasion, come into conflict with the noble Baroness when she was trying to do her job, which they resented. As we have seen on television, Sir Humphreys everywhere believe that they should take the decisions. They mounted the campaign against the noble Baroness. So it was not about the particular issue of the transfer of a member of staff and the Fair Employment Agency.

Perhaps I may put on record here and now the fact that I support the fair employment legislation in Northern Ireland. I believe it to be absolutely necessary. Indeed, in the 1970s, when I sat in another part of this building on the committee which brought into being the fair employment Act, I thought that it was necessary then, and, indeed, I think it is necessary now. However, I do not believe that the alleged infringement was enough to spark off a deluge of criticism against the noble Baroness and calls for her resignation.

In my opinion, the people who have engaged in the campaign—and I defy contradiction—are the civil servants who so disliked the noble Baroness trying to do her job. It is they who have mounted the campaign against her. They brought in another issue: they say that the noble Baroness actually picked her own travelling companion. My, oh my! What a strange thing to happen; that the noble Baroness should pick the girl in whom she has trust to travel with her quite regularly between here and Northern Ireland. Is that a capital sin?

I remember very well when I was the deputy chief executive in the Northern Ireland Executive, the power-sharing executive in Northern Ireland. On 2nd January 1974 the head of the Civil Service came into my office and told me that I would have to have a private secretary. I told him that I had never before needed a private secretary but he said he would submit to me a list of 10 names with CVs and that I would have to pick one. He said that if I could not pick a name out of the first 10 names, he would give me another 10. I said, "Hold on a minute. If you bring me a list with 10 names on it and I have to pick one, that means that I then have nine enemies. The people I have not picked are going to be resentful on one ground or another." I said to him, "Would you please go away and get me somebody who is preferably some years younger than I am—someone whom you think or suspect may have Labour or socialist tendencies and someone who is preferably of a different religion from my own—and, what is most important of all, could you make sure that he drinks gin and tonic?"

The head of the Civil Service came back to me the following day and said, "I have got the very man." For five months in that executive, while it lasted, I had the most harmonious and friendly relationship with Mr. Alex Ireland. We had a relationship in which we trusted each other, where we knew exactly what we were doing and there was no religious or sectarian animosity. Secretaries should be in place with their Ministers. To go back to the attack we have been talking about, I believe that the whole thing is spurious and brought up simply to discredit the noble Baroness. I think the noble Baroness was quite right to pick someone whom she could trust to act as her travelling secretary. She should be commended for doing so. On the very few occasions on which I have met the lady in question, I believe she is certainly entitled to the support of the noble Baroness.

So, what was the real reason for bringing this case against the noble Baroness? I repeat: it was the Sir Humphreys. I heard—and I feel bitterly resentful about it—that when this campaign against the noble Baroness broke out one of the Sir Humphreys said to the Minister—and again I repeat that this is the Minister who has done so much for Northern Ireland—"I think you should pack your bags and leave the Province." I think it is sheer arrogance and effrontery for a civil servant to say that to the Minister that he has been serving in Northern Ireland. By the way, I should say that the Irish News, the newspaper which has carried on this bitter campaign against the noble Baroness, was itself brought before the Fair Employment Commission because it tried to dismiss its political correspondent on the grounds that he was a Protestant and it regarded itself as a Catholic newspaper. So I cannot see that it has any high moral ground on which to take this stance.

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has appointed someone to review the whole circumstances of the alleged misdemeanour on the part of the noble Baroness. He has appointed a Mr. Maurice Hayes to inquire into all the circumstances of the conflict. I must say that I have great reservations about this because Mr. Maurice Hayes is an ex-civil servant himself. He knows all the people involved in the conflict and he is going to be carrying out an inquiry which concerns people with whom he served in the Northern Ireland Civil Service. How can you expect an impartial assessment and outcome of such an inquiry? Why was it that the Government, when conflict was raging in Northern Ireland about the parades, were able to bring in someone from outside on that occasion, Professor North? I believe that the appointment just made should have been a judicial one: it should have been someone with no axe to grind and no involvement with the Northern Ireland Civil Service. I would be very, very reserved about any conclusion that may be brought forward.

I repeat that it was necessary to bring this matter before your Lordships' House because it has not had the attention which it deserves. The Civil Service in Northern Ireland has overstepped the mark. The Irish News, a newspaper which I have so admired, has certainly overstepped the mark. If the noble Baroness is to go, let her go when governments change. There are one or two months to go before the general election. The government may or may not change. But that would be the best and most honourable time for the Minister to relinquish the position she at present holds.

1.6 p.m.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I shall not attempt to follow the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, but I would certainly follow him in expressing gratitude to and support for my noble friend Lady Denton. First of all, I wonder whether she can confirm that in Vote 1 of Schedule 1 in the order we are discussing today the capital grants are still being utilised at the level they were all of eight years ago when I was on the sixth floor of Dundonald House, in the Department of Agriculture. I seem to recall that the happy motto of one of the farmers' unions, the Northern Ireland Agricultural Producers' Association, was: "Act fast while grants last". I put this out over the media and it instantly roused the "Sir Humphreys" into saying that that was not a wise thing to do. Never mind, the grants are there for the support of the agricultural industry and I hope they are still being used to the best advantage. I was very pleased to see that there was mention of the support for marketing as well as fishing. I hope that that support is still strong and that if funding can be found it will continue to assist the fishing industry in the North.

In Vote 2 of Schedule 1 there are one or two items of particular interest to me and no doubt to the noble Baroness. It is the powerful tradition and strength of science and scientific research within the Department of Agriculture and also within the Department of Economic Development. I am thinking in particular of the veterinary research laboratory and the science divisions both in the Stony Road that is right next door to my noble friend's office and in the New Forge complex. I hope that all the funding they require will be going to those sections and that due priority will be given to it.

I am also delighted to see that forestry is mentioned in Vote 2. Everyone who is concerned in tourism will welcome this. Here I think of the wonderful Lough Navar forest drive in County Fermanagh, which will be familiar to my noble friend and certainly it was one of the high spots of visits made by all my own guests who came to the Province: they never forgot it.

I was reminded yesterday that my noble friend took up her post in January 1994, which, as your Lordships will be aware, was just after the signing of the Downing Street agreement, from which we hoped to get all-party talks and an IRA ceasefire together with other things which would follow from it. No doubt my noble friend will remember—and it may clash mildly with some of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, who I see has left the Chamber—but within, I believe, one week of taking up her post my noble friend approached me and said that one of the very first things a "Sir Humphrey" in the Department of Agriculture has said was: "Please, Minister, whatever you do do not follow your four or five predecessors"—who of course included me—"over the question of exploratory voyages for the fishing industry". I had said that of course there must be exploratory voyages. The fishermen danced with glee. The official then explained, "But what the Minister means to say is the following". That is lesson one of the "Yes Minister" series.

One also had to deal with milk quotas, infectious bovine rhinotracheitis, drainage—which in my time changed its name to watercourse management; but thank goodness it is now back to rivers—and one matter which we see on our television screens on what we call mainland television; namely, the health status of the animal sector. At the end of 1988 one of my ministerial colleagues in another place made some "helpful" remarks to the effect that there was enormous turmoil in the fowl sector of the Northern Ireland agricultural industry. There was considerable concern on this side of the water too. I am delighted to see that the dramatis personae of that time now appear on our television screens explaining that Northern Ireland's agricultural industry still enjoys an enormously high health status.

For the past three years and a bit my noble friend has done something that I and my immediate predecessor Lord Mansfield were not able to do; namely, run two departments. From everything that I have heard and read, mainly in newspapers on this side of the water, I know that she has run those departments with great success and verve. Your Lordships may not be aware of the enormous physical, mental and intellectual strain that constant travel between this place and Northern Ireland imposes. My noble friend Lord Long assists the noble Baroness in your Lordships' House. However, attendance in this House and travel within Northern Ireland and, as regards my noble friend, throughout the world, are unique burdens to a parliamentarian and especially to Members of your Lordships' House. It is inevitable that some problems may arise, perhaps some personal problems as the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, has explained.

I am sure that during my five and a half years in Northern Ireland I committed several errors. I quickly learnt to say that I was sorry if I trod on someone's toes. Action was taken to remedy any errors. Toes—and a bit more than that—are trodden on in your Lordships' House and in politics. However, I found that I received huge support from the entire Civil Service within Northern Ireland and on this side of the water. I believe that no one in your Lordships' House or in the Government could have worked harder than my noble friend to serve the interests of everyone in Northern Ireland.

I hope I may take another minute of your Lordships' time to explain that in my time in Northern Ireland I looked after the Department of Agriculture. That covered the food processing and producing industries. I used the happy motto of a famous regiment in the British Army, the Coldstream Guards, nulli secundus. When I was a young recruit in the Scots Guards I was asked what that meant. I said that it meant no second helpings. That earned me a short period in detention in the guardroom at the Guard's Depot in Caterharn, as it was thought I was taking the mickey. The motto means second to none. That was the motto I used for the agricultural industry and for the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland.

I recall the world's greatest food fair in Cologne in 1985. I had thought there were limits on what a Scot might do to push the interests of Northern Ireland. It was suggested to me that I should take two pipers from the Irish Guards into the exhibition hall. I said, "This is great fun but are you being serious"? They replied, "Minister, you can pull it off '. I was rather worried. The pipers entered the exhibition hall. I heard a commotion and a voice speaking in German, saying, "This is some comedy". Fortunately I had access to a microphone. I explained that it was no comedy, that the two pipers were in the Irish Guards and that I was the Minister responsible for the Northern Ireland stand and they were welcome to visit it. One of the people who made those comments was the chief buyer of a large supermarket chain in Northern Germany. Various other members of the United Kingdom delegation sniffed and tut-tutted. However, the main thing was, we were noticed.

In 1986 I went to Hanover, in 1987 to Lille, and in 1988 to Paris to try to push the interests of the Northern Ireland agricultural and food producing industries. I endeavoured to address meetings in France and Germany in the language of those countries. The message I tried to put across to the buyers and the customers was that they might look at the media and read remarks made by various politicians—such as the politicians the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, has mentioned—but that the butter, milk and meat produced in Northern Ireland were of a quality second to none and that they were available in their shops at that moment. The quality of the people who produced it too was second to none.

Your Lordships may be surprised to hear of the response I received from people in Germany, France, Holland and elsewhere in Europe. They said that of course they believed that the quality of Northern Ireland produce was second to none. They asked what was new. They recognised that whatever was printed in what I call the "navel staring" media, was a case of filling column inches or forty minutes on a programme. They knew that the quality of the agricultural produce was second to none.

One day perhaps my noble friend may be able to confirm that the inward investment in industry during my time in Northern Ireland from 1984 to 1989 showed an upward curve. I wonder whether it has fallen off at all as a result of the shenanigans of the past year or two. I made an enormous number of friends during my time in Northern Ireland. Any success I achieved with the agricultural industry in Northern Ireland was entirely due to the support of the greatest team that I can ever imagine; namely, every man and woman who worked in the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland. Not one of them could have done more to encourage an industry which furnished the livelihood of people in Northern Ireland. If there were one or two who did not think that I had done a good job, they nevertheless gave me wholehearted support.

I believe that every one of them will give wholehearted support to my noble friend Lady Denton. She deserves that support. I salute her for what she has done. I hope that she will continue for as long as she wants. I thank her for presenting the order today. I shall not discuss matters beyond agriculture. I apologise for detaining your Lordships. I was one of the longest serving Members of your Lordships' House across the water. Fortunately my health and waistline survived that experience. I was immensely grateful for all the support and for the enormous respect and kindness that I received in the years that I spent there. I thank my noble friend for everything that she has done. I wish her well.

1.20 p.m.

Lord Alderdice

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, not only for her clear presentation of this appropriation order, but also, since there are the first elements of a deal with the Department of Agriculture, for her recent gracious response when I raised the question of the veterinary laboratory in Omagh. I am particularly pleased that in searching for appropriate savings in the Department of Agriculture, which has been recently plagued by a series of difficulties with food and infective disorders, it was recognised that, clearly, the closure of a veterinary research laboratory was not an appropriate area to seek savings at this time. I am glad that the Minister has reversed the decision on closure. Hers was a wise and gracious decision.

Turning to economic development, the noble Baroness was happy to report positive developments. I think it is fairer to accept her reassurance that, despite the end of the ceasefire, there has continued to be considerable inward investment in Northern Ireland. Indeed I am sure that there would have been more. It is reassuring that business people are not so fickle as we might sometimes imagine, and the work of that department continues apace. We encourage it, despite the difficulties.

Unfortunately, as the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, remarked, there have been some untoward comments in respect of aspects of that department. I do not know whether or not there were any regulations that were not fully observed. An inquiry has been undertaken, as was remarked by the former Ombudsman, Mr. Maurice Hayes. I am sure that he will address the issues widely. I make no comment at all about the question of regulations and their observance.

However, any suggestion that any actions, comments or decisions by the Minister might have been motivated in any fashion by sectarianism is utterly wide of the mark. In my experience of this Minister, there is not a bigoted bone in her body. Such suggestions simply make up in vindictiveness for what they lack in veritude.

It is said that politics is something of a blood sport. There is one particular cruelty that I have observed in Northern Ireland over the many years of direct rule. Those Ministers, and indeed others, who cared least and were there least usually escaped much comment. Those who are most available also find themselves most vulnerable to adverse comment of various kinds. That was true of previous Secretaries of State, for example, in various situations and, sadly, in this case. May I reassure the Minister that such an attitude is not held by everyone, not even the majority of people. But it is a painful and unwholesome aspect of our provincial life.

One other unsavoury aspect of life is the return, indeed continuation, of the violence that has stained the face of our beloved Province for so long. It is clearly a matter for deep regret that public funds are again having to be diverted from the care of the sick, the elderly, the vulnerable, children and others to deal with security problems. I welcome the fact that there has been some recent relenting on the part of government over proposed cuts, at least at the level that was proposed, in the Department of Health and Social Services. I recently met the Minister for that department, and we had a positive, constructive discussion about that matter. I do not say that all the resources we should like to see are available; they are not. Some are denied as a result of security problems; some because of decisions about taxation and what is appropriate public expenditure. I welcome the fact that the proposals for 3 per cent. cuts year on year on year in health and social services have, to some extent at least, been mitigated.

I referred last evening during debate on the Education (No.2) (Northern Ireland) Order to recently proposed cuts in education spending. The matter was also referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt. I see those cuts as quite disastrous. We are looking at cuts right across the field. Even within health and social services where, as I said, there are some constructive approaches, the amount that is available for research, as the Minister noted, was £1,000 of increase. That reflects the fact that hundreds of thousands of pounds are being taken out of research budgets in the DHSS. Indeed, the health and welfare of our universities is under serious question because university funding is being cut back.

If we examine the situation for teachers, we find figures of 500 and 600 possible redundancies, many, many thousands of children perhaps having to be moved into larger classes, and a poorer ratio of teachers to pupils. These are serious matters. There is almost unprecedented concern among parents, the community at large and the teaching profession. I fear some degree of collapse in the morale of teachers over this whole question. Teaching is a profession which in our country has tended to be undervalued in a way that is perhaps not the case in other places. I believe that teachers feel powerfully undervalued in the current circumstances.

Quite apart from teachers, we may look, for example, to the plight of classroom assistants. The introduction of the job seeker's allowance has left them unable to claim over the summer holiday periods, unable to have national insurance contributions made over that period. It has left some in a very serious dilemma, even though other staff are able to be paid over that period.

All of this suggests that the buoyant, positive and constructive picture that the Minister, with some justification, presents of the economy—it is a matter of reasonable pride for her since it is one of her own departments—is hardly applicable to education. I trust that, as the financial requirements of Northern Ireland are reviewed and further addressed later this year, the needs of education will receive, as they profoundly deserve, a more sympathetic portion of the block grant.

1.27 p.m.

Lord Morris of Castle Morris

My Lords, I am conscious that one Welshman who today stands here as a wholly inadequate substitute for another Welshman must be very careful if he chooses to comment on financial matters in Northern Ireland. Indeed, I must tread delicately, like Agag, King of the Amalekites, upon eggshells, for fear I suffer the same fate as Agag, as described in the First Book of Samuel, Chapter 15, verse 32.

Like the whole House, I have listened carefully and gratefully to the noble Baroness the Minister introducing this appropriation order, and I have had the advantage of reading in Hansard the careful and detailed consideration (34 columns of it) given to it in another place so recently as nine days ago. There are just two areas on which I would be grateful for further enlightenment from the Minister.

It is immediately evident on scrutinising the order that there have been serious and almost disabling cuts in many areas of Northern Ireland expenditure. This order neither disguises nor remedies that sad situation. The regrettable but necessary shift of some £120 million back to security provision takes an inevitable toll on the resources available for more peaceful and productive purposes. But why mutilate the goose which lays the golden eggs?

At the risk of bringing even more blushes to the noble Baroness's cheek than have been there for the past half an hour, I must ask why the Department of Economic Development has been slashed. Month after month I receive from the Northern Ireland Office a report on employment figures in Northern Ireland. Month after month I am cheered by the remarkable results which are recorded in the employment field. This month's PA Consulting Group report projects a 3 per cent. growth in employment in the next 12 months, on top of steady job increases over the past two years. Yet there are to be cuts of £73 million from the training budget, with the ACE project suffering for a second year.

Training is essential to creating employment. The days when unskilled labourers went daily to their simple factory tasks or spat on their hands and picked up their picks and shovels are long gone, dead, buried, and unmourned. Northern Ireland must have a highly skilled workforce if it is to compete. And you cannot learn tomorrow's skills by sitting next to Nelly on the shop floor and picking it up as you go along. Training is essential. What then is the logic in closing the Dundonald training centre? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary in another place, at col. 994 of the Official Report for 5th March 1997, gave one of the most unconvincing replies to that question that I have ever heard. The Department of Economic Development is a proven success. As the poet W. H. Auden said: "Why spit on your luck?".

The other incomprehensible cut is the hardship imposed on the education budget. Education in Northern Ireland has a distinguished recent record. It was once said that the Scots had a reverence for education, the Welsh have a passion for education and the English have—no particular objection to education. In that respect Northern Ireland is Celtic, not Saxon.

Yet we hear that nearly all the education boards are in deficit, that more than 200 teacher redundancies are planned, that class sizes will increase, that the capital building programme is reduced. These comments and the devastating figures which accompany them were given by the honourable Member for North Antrim in another place. On top of that comes the serious reduction in funding for Northern Ireland's universities. I could detain your Lordships until late in the day on the question of the funding of the universities, but I will let the Chancellor of Queen's University say it succinctly, as he said it in a letter to the honourable Member for North Antrim. He refers to, the serious damage which will be done to Northern Ireland universities, and to the economy and Province generally, resulting from the 1996 Public Expenditure plans announced by the Secretary of State in December 1996. In his announcement he indicated that research funding for the two Northern Ireland universities is to suffer swingeing cuts of £4m (16 per cent.) from April 1997, increasing to £6m (24 per cent.) per annum from 1998. By contrast, the University system in England and Wales received additional funds". He goes on to say a great deal more, but that will suffice.

University teaching and university research are vital to Northern Ireland's prosperity. As the honourable Member for North Antrim pointed out, potential investors always inquire what research facilities are available in the universities. This year and next they will get a dusty answer.

It may be that in the current PES round the Department of the Environment has the greatest cause for complaint. But in considering this order and the financial consequences of it, can the noble Baroness tell the House why such meagre and miserable provision is made for economic development and for education? In the words of the Private Eye cliché: "I think we should be told".

1.34 p.m.

Baroness Denton of Wakefield

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their generous remarks. This House knows that I have become very attached to Northern Ireland. My aim has been to serve all the people in the Province to the very best of my ability—with only one exception. I do have prejudices. I have very real prejudices. My prejudices are 100 per cent. against the men of violence, beatings, bombs and bullets. If they would realise the futility of their ways, then the order I bring before the House would offer many more resources to those in need and those with ambitions.

Noble Lords have covered many areas but one which is obviously of great concern is the reductions in the ACE schemes. I share that concern. The noble Lord, Lord Morris of Castle Morris, asked why there were cuts of such severity. As the economic development Minister, I can tell the House what a difficult battle it is to fight for resources because I must always fight against that Minister fighting for education. There can be no questioning the priority of education. I fight against that Minister responsible for health. The waiting lists and the need for resources in health can never be questioned.

I assure your Lordships that I fight hard and I am pleased that the resources of the DED have been concentrated on ensuring that we continue to have available offers of real jobs and the growth of real jobs. We were able to find an extra £126 million for IDB in the last two surveys to ensure that those companies already in the pipeline were able to come to Northern Ireland. I promise your Lordships that the training of the people in Northern Ireland to take those jobs has not been put at risk. It would be absolute failure on my part if we created jobs in Northern Ireland and then people travelled into the Province to fill them. Those jobs are rightly for the people of Northern Ireland. We aim to skill in that way.

We do, however, have in Northern Ireland 7,000 registered job vacancies. They range across the whole spectrum of opportunity. It is of some concern to me that we have those vacancies because they represent for 7,000 people a reason to get up in the morning and to start on a ladder which will lead to success. I have instigated a review of the long-term unemployed which was published at the beginning of this week. It is only by employers, the community, social groups and the Government working together that we can find answers to ensure that we do not waste opportunities for people and that they are able to look forward to a brighter future.

Five thousand ACE places are available. I have asked that they be concentrated in areas where they meet the needs of the vulnerable, the needy and the under-fives. We do not have a bottomless purse but the resources we have should be directed in those areas. I shall continue to ensure that the department—described so unusually perhaps by the noble Lord, Lord Morris, as the goose which lays the golden egg—will continue to be as productive as ever. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, is no average substitute on the Front Bench. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, would have to give second best on quotations without a doubt. That certainly made it much more entertaining from this side of the House.

The noble Lord asked about the Dundonald training centre. It was not an easy decision. I have met many delegations to talk about it. I was very impressed by those in training at Dundonald who brought their petitions. It is the first time I have ever had a petition in which every one was a letter in an individual envelope. Those youngsters were people who need to be cared about. We looked at the issues, we looked at the capital spend and we looked at the resources around. I can assure your Lordships that facilities are available. I am examining the accessibility of those facilities. We do not intend to take away training opportunities from these people.

There was also the question of accessibility to the veterinary centre in Omagh. I could stand and say that there would be no withdrawal of services—but were they accessible to those people in the west? It was the people in the west and the farmers who made it possible for me to change my mind, because they came to me and said constructively, "We want to keep this centre open and we will pay towards the cost of the services". They offered to accept charges. There was the fact that "nominal" crept into the conversation 24 hours later, which could not be part of the opportunity. But it was a case of listening, reacting and working together. That is something that often happens in Northern Ireland.

As I say, in looking for resources for the Department of Economic Development, it is against the needs of education which are very great in Northern Ireland, because there are very high standards there. I take some issue with the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, because I believe that teaching in Northern Ireland remains a profession of which people are proud and which parents recognise. That is not always the case. I have carried out four teachers' pay reviews in England. I was somewhat shattered on one occasion to be told by a group of teachers, "All the best people have left teaching". One could see that in that group. That is not the case in England. But in Northern Ireland teaching is certainly a profession. In relation to inward investment, people are happy to return to the Province when their children are of school age because there is no better education in the world than what can be obtained there.

There was an additional £24 million for schools over the 1996–97 plans. I am pleased that my honourable friend the Minister for Education, Mr. Michael Ancram, was able only yesterday to announce an extra £2.6 million for schools and colleges of further education and an extra £1 million for health and safety maintenance. All school sectors, education and library board areas will benefit from that addition. It is intended that the £2.6 million should be allocated to the delegated budgets of schools and further education colleges. Of course, it is not enough and it is never enough. There are always great needs, but there is movement and I hope that it offers some comfort.

I take up the question of university funding. We must have a highly skilled stream of young people available to attract inward investment. Because of the demographic picture in Northern Ireland, we are at an advantage with our competitors. What worries me is whether we have enough jobs. I see many people with two degrees who are unable to use their talents as much as they should. I recognise that problem and we work to change it.

The core funding for the universities of Northern Ireland will continue to be based on the recommendations of the Higher Education Funding Council for England. A review is under way of the Northern Ireland arrangements for research support. Again, I am pleased to add to that, but not straightforwardly in the education budget. From the economic development budget there are significant contributions to the universities from IRTU, the Industrial Research and Technology Unit. It aims to relate university research to industry, which is very important. It is one of the strengths of Northern Ireland that there are no ivory towers for academics to hide in. They relate to the development of the Province.

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Lyell, who as a Minister was much loved in Northern Ireland. He achieved much and he is remembered with much affection. I thank him for drawing attention to the excellence of the team in the Department of Agriculture who have seen the most difficult year anyone has ever faced in the agricultural area. They have served the farmer, the processor and the consumer well. He asked whether the attitude of farmers was the same towards capital grants as it was in his day. I am told that farmers in Northern Ireland now worry more about a postal strike than the weather. So I have pleasure in assuring my noble friend that there is no lack of applications on any occasion.

I was delighted that in the final negotiations of the pay settlement we were able to find an extra £2 million for marketing grants. Again, we cannot be proud over how much agricultural produce leaves the Province without added value. We continue to work on that. We continue to fight for our fishermen. Indeed, I raised in Dublin on Wednesday the question of The Hague preference, which works against Northern Ireland fishermen. We shall continue to fight about that. We care about our forestry. Perhaps I may use the succinct phrase which becomes my noble friend rather better. The motto now is, "Plant more trees".

My noble friend Lord Lyell also drew attention to the warmth of the people of Northern Ireland. He is absolutely right. For the most part their warmth is outstanding, which has made my job so much easier and so enjoyable. I did not work all the hours which some of your Lordships have mentioned from any sense of self-sacrifice. I did so because I enjoy doing nothing else more. I wish that I could bring more resources to your Lordships' House for the people of Northern Ireland. There is one way in which I can. The end of violence in Northern Ireland would mean that everyone could benefit. We could all go on growing faster and to the advantage of those in greatest need. I commend the order to the House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.