Plastic Baton Rounds: Use in Northern Ireland (Hansard, 12 June 1997)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Dubs)
No, my Lords. We shall act with the greatest energy and determination to advance the prospects of reaching a comprehensive and widely acceptable settlement in Northern Ireland, but we do not believe that that objective would be served by banning the use of plastic baton rounds. We recognise that the use of baton rounds has given rise to controversy and we look forward to a time when their use is no longer required. In current circumstances, however, where the security forces require the capability to defend lives and property, and to protect themselves in riot situations, baton rounds unfortunately remain necessary.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer and congratulate him on his appointment. However, I find the reply disappointing. I suppose that the Minister must know that since the introduction of these missiles 100,000 bullets have been fired and 983 17 people have died as a result, among them eight children. That has had a devastating effect on whole communities, with thousands of people alienated from any talk of a peace process while they are under constant threat from plastic missiles. If we are serious and sincere about attempting to carry the population with us with regard to the peace process, I should have thought that it would be better to recommend a ban on the use of such missiles, particularly before the parade season starts, in order to give the peace process some credibility in the eyes of those affected. I should add that plastic bullets have been available to the police on the mainland for many years but none was used during the riots in Toxteth, Notting Hill, Bristol or Tottenham. The police did not use plastic bullets then, but suddenly their use outside public houses, at football matches, in private homes and at demonstrations is being justified. Will the Minister reconsider his Answer?

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, plastic baton rounds have been used in Northern Ireland for many years. I remind my noble friend that they were used only a week or so ago at Harryville to prevent disorder when rioters tried to break into a Catholic church. We have had to use them to maintain the peace and to ensure that safeguards can be applied when lives or properties are at risk. For that reason we must stick with these weapons. I hope that when there is peace in Northern Ireland these weapons will no longer be necessary. In the meantime, unfortunately they are.

§ Lord Blease
My Lords, does the Minister agree—

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, even if it is not possible—

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard)
My Lords, I believe that it is the turn of the Cross Benches.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, even if banning these weapons is not possible, can the Minister give an assurance that their use will be kept to a minimum and that the right size and quality of missile will be used?

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, there are already strict rules governing the use of plastic baton rounds by the RUC. The use of these rounds is also governed by Section 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 in that the force used must be reasonable in the circumstances. The police also undergo thorough training before they are able to use these weapons. We are doing all we can to ensure that they are used in the safest possible way.

§ Lord Blease
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is the considered aim of all peaceable organisations in Northern Ireland to be able to dispense with the use of plastic bullets? Does the Minister also agree that the credibility of the peace process could be more realistically and constructively reinforced if the perpetrators of crowd violence, organised rioting, the burning of churches, property and public transport, and 984 the destruction of homes were to exercise responsibility and control over themselves and those who crowd around them?

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, if there were no disorder on the streets plastic baton rounds would not have to be used.

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, recently not only did the RUC battle for four hours to prevent a Catholic church from being burnt down but also a policeman was kicked to death for doing his duty and trying to separate participants on a march demonstration. Is this the climate in which we should contemplate the removal of support from the RUC? Is the Minister able to give the House an indication of the number of members of the RUC who have been injured in recent years compared with the number of those injured by plastic baton rounds?

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, it is difficult to give absolutely precise figures but I shall do my best to inform the House. It is estimated that some 100 people may have been injured over the past three years by plastic baton rounds. Last year alone over 400 RUC officers were injured in dealing with disorders. In one week alone between 7th and 15th July 230 officers were injured, some seriously, in trying to maintain peace on the streets.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, will my noble friend consider seeking a worldwide ban on the use of this horrendous weapon? When one sees what has happened to human beings who have been hit by these bullets one wonders in what kind of world we live. In a way, it is even more terrible than the threat of any bomb. I should like my country to initiate a total world prohibition on the use of this particular bullet.

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, I fear that if in the present situation in Northern Ireland the security services were not in certain circumstances able to use these weapons there might be more injuries both to members of the security services and to rioters. None of us likes this weapon, but in the circumstances it is less unpleasant than any alternative currently available. If there were a better alternative available the Government would very quickly adopt it.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that, regrettable though the necessity of using these weapons may be, the intervention of the last noble Lord sounded more like a comment on landmines than plastic bullets? Does the noble Lord agree that this House should not accept that as a description of their effect?

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, I said earlier that the training of the police was such that everything was done to minimise serious injury to those who might be hit by plastic baton rounds. That is the way in which they are intended to be used, and the police are well trained.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, will the Minister comment on the recent report from Northern Ireland about a batch 985 of plastic bullets found to be flawed and allegedly ill made and far more damaging and dangerous than those normally used? What are the implications of that finding and the report from the police in Northern Ireland?

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, only a few days ago there appeared in Hansard an Answer to a Parliamentary Written Question on this very subject. There have been some problems with plastic baton rounds which have not been up to the required standard. When the RUC spotted this in March of this year they immediately drew attention to the fact and the rounds were withdrawn in April—very quickly indeed. Although there were some defects in the plastic baton rounds which were used in the two years following 1994 there is no hard and fast evidence that they caused injury, or any injury greater than that which might have been caused by ordinary plastic baton rounds. Certainly, that point is still under investigation.