HL Deb 15 July 1997 vol 581 cc906-7

2.47 p.m.

Lord Henderson of Brompton

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether there has been any recent reduction in the number of people in prison who are debt defaulters.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, the most recent figures available indicate that, on 31st May, there were 15 people in prison for non-payment of civil debt. This represents a fall of approximately 30 per cent. compared to the figure of 21 debt defaulters in prison on 30th May 1996. Civil debtors are classified as people who have been imprisoned for non-payment of maintenance, local government taxes and other debts.

Lord Henderson of Brompton

My Lords, that is a hugely satisfactory Answer. The figures are greatly improved since I last asked a Question on the subject. Do I understand, therefore, that the Minister is of the same persuasion as I: that it is a waste of public money to use this very expensive accommodation for small debtors? If there are any procedural or statutory bars against imprisoning such offenders, will the Minister take the earliest opportunity that is provided either by statute or otherwise to ensure that this waste of money and of human lives is brought to an end?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, I am most grateful for the tone of the noble Lord's question, as well as for its content. In this context, imprisonment is the sanction of last resort—and we believe that it ought to be. As a result of the decision of Lord Justice Simon Brown in R v. Oldham Justices ex parte Cawley in 1995, it has been made perfectly plain that any court considering the sanction, which I repeat is the sanction of last resort, is obliged to consider all other enforcement measures prior to imprisonment. We believe that a most useful discipline is that the court is required in open court to state its reasons for not using any other enforcement measure. This chimes with the earlier Question. Prison spaces are extremely scarce. As the noble Lord has rightly said, they are extremely expensive. It is a source of some satisfaction that the numbers are now quite small—perhaps rather lower than is sometimes implied in public discussion in the newspapers.

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I am grateful that the noble Lord has just given the proud record of the previous government. The statistics that the noble Lord has referred to were achieved by the previous government. I agree that we should continue to try to find effective alternative methods to penalise those who default on debt. Does the noble Lord agree that other alternatives should include, for example, curfew by electronic tagging which can be very successful and effective, but that at the end of the day for the most persistent debt defaulters and the most serious cases prison must always be a last resort?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that the technology on electronic tagging has become more sophisticated. It is therefore available as a more flexible control than the earlier rather cruder technology. The Home Secretary has made it plain that his mind is always open to alternatives. In so far as the former government claim credit for the reduction in the imprisonment of debt defaulters, I am more than happy to lay credit where it truly lies.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, in the related category of fine defaulters and those who do not pay their television licences, can the noble Lord say what progress is being made in the use of non-custodial sentences, such as community service orders, instead of imprisonment?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, certainly this question exercises a large number of people. The truth is that to watch television without a licence is a criminal offence. However, I am bound to say that, given some of the programmes on television, watching television with a licence…! Of course, imprisonment in this case must be a measure of last resort. Alternatives include a money payment supervision order, an attachment of earnings order, an attachment of benefits order and a distress warrant. My experience, such as it is, is that courts are very reluctant to sentence people to imprisonment for the non-payment of television licence dues. I believe that that is a matter that all courts have carefully in mind.