Rwanda: Arms Allegations (Hansard, 28 January 1997)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)
My Lords, in the light of media reports in November 1996, Her Majesty's Customs and Excise are seeking to establish whether there have been any illegal acts coming within UK jurisdiction. There is no suggestion that arms were exported from the UK by the company at the centre of recent allegations. The allegations suggest that arms were supplied from third countries.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that Answer. We understand that there was a failure to implement the United Nations embargo on sales of arms to Rwanda in Crown 1080 dependencies and dependent territories. Indeed, the Foreign Secretary announced that. If Customs are examining the question of British manufactured arms, can they be sure that those arms were not diverted from other destinations by those people who operated in the Isle of Man, Guernsey, or wherever it was, and sent off to Rwanda? Can that be established for certainty?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, until the investigations are complete I cannot give the noble Lord a complete answer. From my discussions with Her Majesty's Customs and Excise I know that they will examine all possible avenues by which arms, wherever they went from and whatever route was used, may have ended up in Rwanda by entering from a country neighbouring Rwanda. That is the essential point that the question revealed in paragraph 41 of the interdepartmental committee report; namely, whether existing orders prohibit deliveries to countries neighbouring Rwanda for the purpose of use in Rwanda as UN Security Council resolutions require. I assure the noble Lord that the interdepartmental committee has produced no evidence that deficiencies in the system resulted in the export of arms from the UK to the Rwandan Hutu rebels who fled following the 1994 genocide.

The Viscount of Falkland
My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the problems particularly in relation to Africa is the export, not of arms as such, but of seemingly innocuous items which can be used as instruments of repression? The most obvious example is the machete, which can be described as an agricultural implement, and objects of that kind. Does she accept that one has to be very much on one's guard against that?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, the noble Viscount is right. However, in my years of experience in Africa I have seen many home-produced machetes which are just as lethal as any weapons that might enter from outside for use by warring tribesmen. They are sometimes very good at producing their own implements. If nothing else is available, they will use those.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, can the Minister give the House any indication as to when the Customs and Excise inquiry will be completed and whether an announcement will be made in the House?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I wish I could, since we could then bring this whole matter to a clear end. I cannot do so at the moment. If I have any further knowledge, I will write to the noble Lord.

§ Lord Monkswell
My Lords, do the Government have any evidence that arms shipped by the company in question prior to the United Nations embargo were shipped from the United Kingdom but after that were shipped via one of the dependent territories which escaped the legal net?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord a definitive answer. Clearly, all the evidence is not yet to hand. The whole matter has not yet 1081 been fully investigated. I repeat that there is no evidence that deficiencies in the system resulted in the export of arms from the UK to the Rwandan Hutus by whatever means. I am committed to making sure that the whole matter is fully cleared up. I am glad to say that we are working in co-operation with the UN International Commission of Inquiry. The chairman of the commission wrote to the Government on 17th December expressing complete satisfaction with the co-operation that it had received from the UK. I will place a copy of the letter in the Library.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, will the Minister give an undertaking that if the final report shows that loopholes have been exploited by people taking arms into that country the Government will do all they can to see that those loopholes are closed as quickly as possible?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I think that that was done in the response to the Question that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and I answered in our respective Houses on 21st January. The reply appeared at cols. WA 50 and WA 51 of Hansard. The Government have endorsed the report of the interdepartmental committee. There is a copy of the report in both Libraries. We are implementing all its recommendations.