HL Deb 20 January 1997 vol 577 cc379-81

2.51 p.m.

Lord Bruce of Donington asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether the European Commission's proposal to spend approximately £4 million to help lawyers and judges improve their knowledge of European Union law was featured in the Commission's budget for 1997 and, if so, under what title and chapter; and whether the proposal was made at the specific request of the Council of Ministers or any individual member state.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, the proposal was included in the 1997 European Communities draft budget. The title was, B5-3 Internal Market, and the chapter heading was B5-30 Measures concerning the internal market. Under the proposal, 5.6 million ecu, equivalent to £4.2 million, would be provided during 1997-99, of which 1.6 million ecu or £1.2 million would fall due in 1997. This is a Commission initiative. It was not the result of a request by the Council of Ministers or by the United Kingdom, and the Government are not aware of any request from individual member states.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, may I express my congratulations to Her Majesty's Government on having rejected the Commission's proposal? However, are the Government aware that there is no such thing as European common law or European statute law? The treaty is all that there is. All that lawyers are invited to do is distinguish the significance that the European Court of Justice is likely to place on the use of the preamble to the treaty, and the preamble and recitals of each regulation directive that comes forward. In most cases those exceed the text of the so-called law itself.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, all Community legislation might be regarded as statutory in the sense that it is made by organs of the Community. In so far as it has effect in this country, it is by virtue of the European Communities Act and Acts amending the same. So far as the construction of European legislation is concerned, the preamble, where there is one, may be of consequence along with the other parts of the instrument in question. The European Court of Justice, which is not exceptional, seeks to construe the instrument as a whole, including its full text and preamble.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble and learned friend aware that the complexity of European law is due mainly to the obligation on the part of member states to harmonise their law under the Treaty of Rome, as amended; and that with 15 nations with 11 different languages and a number of different legal systems, that process has become very nearly impossible? Is my noble and learned friend further aware that Herr Rolf Wagenbaur, the eminent German lawyer who was largely responsible for advising the Commission on this matter until his retirement 18 months ago, advised that there should be fewer European laws, and that they should be better?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, it would be extremely difficult for anyone to dissent from the very succinct advice that my noble friend quoted at the end of his question. The first consideration relates to the need for a law. Where it is shown to be necessary, it should be as clear and succinct as possible. Where there is complexity, we should aim at simplification; however, where the existing law is complex it has to some extent to do with the nature of the problems being addressed by the law. Some areas of our own law might, for example, be regarded as somewhat complex.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, does this attempt to train lawyers also apply to other professions that will work across the boundaries; or is it the case that the well-known moderation demonstrated by lawyers in relation to their charges will not be able to stand the cost of their training themselves?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, the short answer (though I am tempted to give the longer one) may be the wiser. This particular initiative deals only with lawyers.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, I accept the interpretation given of the whole question by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. However, will he accept that the complexities to which he refers are in part due to the powers given to the Commission to be the sole interpreters, short of the court itself, of the provisions of the treaty? Does he further accept that the Commission's advice on various sections is very often contradictory and sometimes, I regret to say, unintelligible?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, perhaps the more unintelligible the interpretation, the less harm it can do. I agree that these matters are difficult. Anything that can properly advance understanding, skill and simplicity is to be supported. On the other hand, for reasons set out in the memorandum on this proposal, the Government took the view that this is not a particularly wise way to spend this sort of money.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton

My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord say whether the Government are sympathetic to the view that those in initial training in the legal profession face very difficult financial circumstances, and that were money to be spent, it would be better spent at that stage to enable the rising generation of lawyers to be fully conversant with European laws?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, the subject matter of European law is included in syllabuses for those seeking to enter the legal profession. Sustaining those aspects of the syllabus costs money. It is desirable that on entry to the profession those who seek to qualify should have an understanding of European law.