Drinking and Driving: Breath Tests (Hansard, 14 January 1997)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen)
My Lords, in Scotland the police conducted a record 134,000 tests, which resulted in 1,155 drivers failing or refusing to take a breath test, less than 1 per cent., the lowest percentage ever recorded. In England and Wales the police did not publish the number of tests carried out during the campaign period but 5,209 drivers failed or refused to take a test. That was an increase on the previous year but it may largely be the result of an increase in the number of tests. It is too early to draw any firm conclusions about the effectiveness of the campaigns over the holiday period. But it is clear that there is a hard core of people who are choosing to ignore the drink/drive message.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his reply, with such information as he has been able to supply. Did he notice that the first results announced gave the impression that the situation was worse than a year earlier, but that later it was discovered that many more drivers had been tested this time so that the percentage of drivers under the limit was, if anything, an improvement? Is it intended in future not to disclose the total of numbers tested, as appears to have happened in England and Wales in some cases this year, or was it simply in this case a lapse in numeracy?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that it is important to put the number of people who failed a test or failed to take part in a test in 96 perspective in terms of the number of people who were tested. It is clear that because the police did not provide that total figure it has been more difficult to extrapolate those results. Discussions will be going on between my department and the Association of Chief Police Officers with a view to making better comparisons in future.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, in order to deal more effectively with the hard core to whom the Minister referred, is it not time to take a rather tougher stance in relation to drink-driving? Would it not be appropriate to take into account very strongly indeed the views of the AA, the BMA and the Association of Chief Police Officers that the legal limit for drink-driving should be reduced?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, that is one theory. However, on the other hand, in the past 10 years or so there has been considerable success in reducing the amount of people who drink-drive and in changing the culture. This has been done through hard enforcement, getting the message across with the use of advertising campaigns and so on. The number of fatalities has fallen very dramatically indeed. Overall, the campaigns have been a great success. There does not seem to be evidence that a reduction in the level of alcohol permissible would have a particular effect on the overall trend in terms of the number of people who drink-drive.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is the Minister against the recommendation of the AA, the BMA and the Association of Chief Police Officers?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, the present limit is the level at which for most drivers the chance of being involved in an accident starts to rise sharply. We believe that the priority is to enforce the law at the present limit. It is a limit that people readily understand. We believe that the important thing is to make sure that people do not exceed that limit and do not drink-drive and therefore cause accidents.

§ Lord Strathcarron
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it may be that more accidents are caused by people who cannot see properly, particularly at night, than by drivers who are over the limit? As being over the limit is not considered respectable but not being able to see properly is respectable, does my noble friend agree that no government have ever done anything about this important safety aspect? So far as I am concerned, whether I am run over by a drunken driver or someone who cannot see properly, the result will be exactly the same.

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, it is vital that every effort is taken to ensure that accidents do not happen whatever the cause. But drink driving is a particular cause and it can be easily identified. Something can and has been done about it. The results of the campaigns that we have run have been very impressive indeed. However, from this evidence it appears that there is more work to be done. We shall not slacken in our 97 efforts to get the message across. My noble friend is quite right in that it is extremely important that people have proper vision in order to drive safely on the roads.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, has any research been done into the ages of the people tested? It is my very limited experience that young people of my children's age simply do not touch drink when they are driving.

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I am very pleased to hear of my noble friend's experience. I believe that there has been some evidence to suggest that certain elements among younger people have failed to take the message on board. That is why we have targeted in the past our campaigns at younger drivers to get over the message that drinking and driving is dangerous and can lead to death or to people being scarred for life.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, do the Government agree that the level of driving skill is impaired by the consumption of alcohol in amounts smaller than that sufficient to put somebody over the limit? If that is the case, are there not still people being killed or severely injured on the roads in consequence of people drinking amounts of alcohol which are considered to be safe?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I am sure that there will always be debate about the amount of alcohol that should represent the legal limit. However, I have said that even with the limit staying as it is and with people comprehending that limit of 80 milligrams, there has been considerable success. We believe that the priority lies in educating people and pushing hard on enforcement.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, does the Minister agree that recent research in the United States, and latterly in Britain, seems to indicate that far more traffic accidents are caused by sober drivers who have had an inadequate amount of sleep and who doze off at the wheel, than by drivers who are over the limit to some degree? Does he further agree that there appears to be a conspiracy of silence on that? What do the Government propose to do about it?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I do not believe that there has been a conspiracy of silence. If the noble Lord has travelled along motorways, he will have occasionally seen signs informing people that tiredness kills and that they should take a break from driving. It is an extremely important message to get across. The fact is that some people are still acting irresponsibly and drinking over the limit. We aim to apply the maximum pressure on such people to stop this behaviour.

§ Lord Geddes
My Lords, is it a statistically proven fact that there is more drink driving over the Christmas-New Year period or is it merely the fact that the police are more vigilant over that period?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I am sure it is the fact that there is more drinking over the Christmas and the New Year period per se. Therefore, it has been our policy to make sure over that particular time that we run an advertising campaign which is hard hitting and that the police take forward their enforcement duties even more vigorously during that time. It has been effective and we shall continue to concentrate our efforts over that particular period.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, can my noble friend attribute any particular reason for the reduction and improvement in the figures for Scotland, as he has indicated? They have shown a considerable improvement, but from my own experience over the past three weeks I saw no reduction in the level of celebrations over Christmas and the New Year in Scotland.

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, we are very pleased that the percentage has fallen and we shall continue to encourage that. We shall not put any less effort into our campaigns, and we aim to learn from the Scottish experience.