Industrial Tribunals (Hansard, 24 February 1997)

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, the rules of procedure already permit industrial tribunals to adopt a test case approach in such cases.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, I am glad to hear that reply from the Minister. However, is she aware that 60,000 cases are presently outstanding in respect of compensation for part-time workers who have apparently been illegally excluded from occupational pension schemes? Should not fast-track procedures be adopted in order to deal with those cases?

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, I am aware of the matter to which the noble Baroness refers. However, we believe that existing rules of procedure are perfectly adequate to ensure that test cases are held where it is appropriate.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, the present procedure may perhaps be appropriate, but will my noble friend tell the House whether it is being applied? Has independent advice been obtained? If Treasury counsel advised that there were 100 cases raising an identical preliminary point of law, would it not be possible to consolidate under the procedure? If so, why has that not been done?

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, the handling of these cases is for the judiciary to decide. For a test case approach to be appropriate there has to be a common principle attached to all the cases or to groups of them. One of the noble Baroness's honourable friends asked a very similar question in the other place. At that time there was agreement that we would seek the advice of the presidents of the industrial tribunals. They are absolutely convinced that this is the appropriate way to deal with such cases. They are dealing with the cases in that way; and I understand that about 100 other such cases are being dealt with on a test case approach.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that over the past four-year period for which figures are available there has been an increase of 25 per cent.—from 3,043 to 3,803—in the number 896 of unfair dismissal cases heard by industrial tribunals in England and Wales that have been successful? If those figures are correct, is there any action that the Government could usefully take to curb such violations of employment rights?

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, I am afraid I cannot confirm that the figures given by the noble Lord are correct. They may very well be; it is simply that I cannot find the page in my brief. I have to confess that I am not too sure whether those numbers are correct. However, I can confirm that we believe these matters are being dealt with appropriately. If there is a delay, we try to speed them up as much as possible.

§ Lord Clark of Kempston
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the present cost to the taxpayer of industrial tribunals is very modest indeed? Does she also agree that if legal aid were to be extended to industrial tribunals—as is rumoured to be Labour Party policy—the cost to the British taxpayer would be exorbitant?

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that that is probably the case. The Government have no plans to make legal aid generally available for representation before any further tribunals. It will, however, still remain possible to receive advice for the preparatory stages of a case under the green form scheme; that is, before it arrives at the tribunal.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, the Minister's noble friend talks about the British taxpayer as if he or she were a mythical creature. It is worth bearing in mind that people who come before industrial tribunals are taxpayers, and they are very concerned about their position. I think that the House will still be a little puzzled by the Minister's Answer. She says that everything is okay, test cases are possible and the powers that be are perfectly satisfied. However, there are 60,000 people who are being badly done by. If I were one of those 60,000, I should not be in the least bit interested in being told that everything is okay and that there could be a test case. I should want my money and my rights. I should want someone to get a move on. Why are the Government not at least encouraging the industrial tribunals or whatever bodies are involved to do something?

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, the noble Lord is labouring under a misapprehension. As regards the 60,000 cases, some are already being dealt with on a test case basis. The problem, as the noble Lord probably knows, is that recently the Court of Appeal refused to allow 21 women and one man leave to apply to the European Court of Justice, thereby effectively holding that the six-month time limit was not against European law. The problem was that, when the case was brought, it was outside the six months' time limit which applied for the industrial tribunal. I understand that there is a possibility that an appeal will be made to your Lordships' House on the matter. It is not a question of the Government not wanting to deal with the problem. In these cases, if the judiciary who deal with the 897 direction hearings at the beginning of an industrial tribunal think it is appropriate for a test case then it is dealt with as a test case. Certainly the cases which we are discussing are dealt with in that way.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, if there is a backlog of 60,000 cases, what is the Government's best estimate of the date when that backlog will be eliminated?

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, I have no idea. I am not in the business of guestimating or estimating. It would be improper for me to try to do so.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, I do not seek to oppress my noble friend or to cause embarrassment, but I have a simple, straightforward question which goes to the essence of the problem. Have Treasury counsel sought independent legal advice as to whether it is appropriate to consolidate on a preliminary issue of law? If not, will they do so? If they receive the advice, will counsel defer to it?

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, I imagine that this is a matter for the judiciary to decide. Whether or not advice has already been sought I do not know. However, as regards the whole subject, a system of individual rights and remedies underpins the whole of the United Kingdom's equality legislation. I am not certain whether the noble Lord refers to class actions or such matters, but it would be more appropriate if I were to write to him and give him an accurate answer.