HL Deb 19 February 1997 vol 578 cc684-6

3.5 p.m.

Lord Dubs asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they have any proposals to alter the basis of support to local authorities through the revenue support grant.

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Earl Ferrers)

No, my Lords.

Lord Dubs

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his usual helpful approach to these matters. Is there not something wrong with a system which classifies the City of Westminster as the fourth most deprived local authority in the country and results in the Government giving it so much support that a millionaire living in Belgravia pays less in council tax than, for example, a person living in the poorest quality accommodation in Liverpool and also thousands of other people up and down the country? Is there some good answer for that, or is it simply that the Government wish to support their Conservative friends at Westminster City Council?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, there is a good answer, of which the noble Lord's last observations do not form part. The noble Lord says that Westminster is the fourth most deprived local authority. So it is. Noble Lords and noble Baronesses opposite seem to think that that is funny. If they addressed their minds to the facts, they would see that independent research carried out by Bristol University confirms that Westminster is the fourth authority on an index of material deprivation. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, may therefore like to take the smile off her face.

If the noble Lord is still worried, let me point out that Westminster has a higher density of population than Hackney, Islington, Lambeth or Southwark; it has a higher proportion of people likely to be from ethnic minorities than Hackney, Islington, Lambeth or Southwark; it has a higher proportion of people living in overcrowded accommodation than Hackney, Islington, Lambeth or Southwark; and it has a higher proportion of elderly people over 85—some of whom may be in your Lordships' House—and a higher proportion of elderly people living alone than Hackney, Islington, Lambeth or Southwark. That is the reason for the grant which Westminster City Council receives.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, what sort of council has caused these appalling figures?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, if I may say so, that is a peculiarly helpful question from the noble Lord. It happens to be a Conservative council. If one looks at the position for Hackney, Islington, Lambeth and Southwark, one finds that they charge far higher council taxes. The council tax in Westminster last year was £295, in Camden it was £779 and in Islington, £853.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, will the noble Earl encourage the City of Westminster to improve the efficiency of its services? The Audit Commission demonstrated last year that many of the services provided by Westminster City Council are by far the most expensive in Britain. Westminster spends more on refuse collection and disposal, street cleaning and benefits claimants than any other council in England. Instead of giving Westminster Council a lot of taxpayers' money, would it not be better to ask it to get its act together?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, it is up to the voters of Westminster City Council to decide whether the council should get its act together. It provides very good services at a council tax lower than anywhere else.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, courtesy of the Government!

Lord Dubs

My Lords, could I encourage the Minister to return to the real point of my question? Does he agree that, even if it is proper, as we all accept, that deprivation should command more support, the amount of money that the Government give to Westminster City Council goes way beyond the indices of deprivation in Westminster, to the point where millionaires in Belgravia pay less in council tax than ordinary people up and down the country who are much poorer? Surely the Government have got that wrong.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, there is a scintilla of light in what the noble Lord says. This disposal of government money is made as a result of a formula. The formula dictates how it is worked out. The noble Lord might ask, "Ought we to change the formula?". I am bound to say that I too have often thought that we should, but whenever I have suggested it it has seemed rather like trying to move Mount Sinai, and Mount Sinai has won.

If the formula is altered it advantages some people and all the other people at the other end of the spectrum shout "Foul". It is not easy to do. We are always prepared to listen to proposals for the alteration of the formula. Oddly enough, the Association of Metropolitan Authorities put forward a possible change of formula last year, but we are not convinced that that represented an improvement. One result would have been that Camden would have lost £5 million. That would have been disturbing for Camden. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, would not have liked it. But that is one of the problems that arises when one tries to alter the formula.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, speaking of Mount Sinai, what steps are the Government taking to extradite a former Leader of Westminster Council, so that she may return to this country and pay the surcharge that she owes?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, that has nothing to do with Mount Sinai and nothing to do with the Government.