Landmines: Manufacture and Export (Hansard, 3 February 1997)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)
My Lords, the Government's moratorium prohibits the export of all anti-personnel landmines to all countries. There are no such restrictions on manufacture but, as far as we are aware, no British companies have manufactured these weapons for several years.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, I very much welcome the assurance of the Minister. Will she accept that my Question was prompted by the apparent disagreement over the plea by Princess Diana for the complete abolition of anti-personnel mines? I am glad that the position has now been clarified. The initiative taken by the Government last week at the disarmament conference in Geneva was welcome. But will that impede in any way the processes which were agreed at the Ottawa Conference on this subject last year? Can the Minister also confirm that these devices will not be used by British troops, in view of the general agreement that they have no military strategic importance?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we welcome the comments made by the Princess of Wales in support of a total ban on anti-personnel mines. That is the Government's view also. I can assure him also that our tabling of a mandate in the Conference on Disarmament was done because we believe that that is the best place to achieve the goal of a total ban. We are pressing for an early start to negotiations.
The CD has a good track record in arms control and the wide membership essential for such an agreement. It is notable that Canada, the UN Secretary General and a significant number of countries have already 1431 pronounced themselves in favour of the Conference on Disarmament considering the APL. That is a good step forward, so there is no disagreement in that regard. In relation to working towards a unilateral ban on the use of mines, it is not the British Army that caused the problem. We do not ban their use if it is for a special purpose. But any such use will be subject to ministerial consent.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, does not the Minister agree that landmines, whether anti-personnel or anti-tank, are quintessentially defensive weapons? Contrary to what might have been suggested by the noble Lord, they have enormous military significance, especially in the defence of small forces against substantially larger ones. Does not the Minister agree also that it is misleading to say that the mines have no military application? Can she give the House an assurance that the high profile publicity campaigns carried out by people who do not always understand the military implications will not lead the Government into any unilateral action?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that anti-personnel mines, particularly the SMART mines—the only ones now permitted—are defensive weapons. However, if he could see, as I have seen in country after country the terrible situation that exists for ordinary youngsters and adults who have become innocent victims of landmines which were not SMART mines, he would understand why I and so many others are committed not only to demining but also to gaining a global ban. We should not seek to have unilateral bans which allow certain countries to go on using mines. They have a proper military use, but it is extremely limited. I am glad to say that the British Army, when it has to use such mines, does so for limited purposes only, and we hope that that will decrease year by year.

§ Viscount Waverley
My Lords, I recently returned from Afghanistan, where there are an estimated 10 million unexploded landmines. Can the Minister say whether there is a move to harmonise export arms controls at IGC? If so, which governments are supporting the move?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, it is not the IGC; I believe the noble Viscount means the Conference on Disarmament.

§ Viscount Waverley
My Lords, is there a move to harmonise at IGC on arms export controls?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, there is no such move at the moment. However, our commitment to a total global ban on the transfer, as well as the production, use and stockpiling, of anti-personnel landmines will go a long way to bring that about. The critical need is to persuade all countries to ban the production, use and transfer and to stop indiscriminate use. That is what we are working well towards.

§ Lord Haskel
My Lords, is the Minister aware that since the Scott Report the Government's credibility on 1432 the matter of arms exports is at a low ebb? For that reason, can the Minister once again confirm that there are no exports, direct or indirect or by transfer to third parties—third countries like the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man—or in the form of component parts?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, this Question has nothing whatever to do with the Scott Report. Last week I answered the question which has just been repeated by the noble Lord and I have nothing further to add.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, in light of my noble friend's reply to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, regarding the horrors of the effects of mines, does she accept that the most humane action we can now take is urgently to lift the mines? We should concentrate our efforts on lifting known mines and convincing the military to mark and map all minefields when they are laid.

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. That is why we have contributed £22 million to humanitarian mine clearance over the past five years. We shall maintain our position as one of the world's leading contributors to demining and shall contribute to the European Union support for humanitarian mine clearance. We have always said that mine lifting is one of the most valuable actions we can take and we are helped in that by the Royal Army Ordnance Corps. However, the marking of minefields needs the consent of those who laid the mines in the first place. I know from bitter experience in Angola that many layers of mines had no such maps or, if they had, they have been destroyed.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that our Royal Engineers have given an exemplary example in mine laying? In the last war, every mine that we laid, when it was necessary, could be picked up with the greatest of ease by another group of Royal Engineers when taking over the plans. If the rest of the world had the same ability as our Royal Engineers, laid mines would not be a difficulty.

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. One of the most heartening things that I am seeing these days is retired members of the British Armed Forces joining with groups such as the Halo Trust and the Mines Advisory Group to teach people in countries which are littered with anti-personnel mines how to lift them safely. We wish them well in that work. The Royal Army Ordnance Corps and other soldiers have also been involved in that work.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House which are the countries that seem to be resisting our policy in this matter?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, it is not yet clear. We do not have a complete rundown. However, we have had support in favour of the Conference on Disarmament considering anti-personnel 1433 mines from the United States, Canada, France, Italy, Japan and Australia. Some countries, probably among the non-aligned, are not yet ready to sign up, but our persuasion goes on.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, I apologise if I asked this Question some time ago, but has progress been made in devising new methods of detecting and destroying the mines, which at the present time is an enormously expensive and laborious business?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, there may have been, but I am not technically expert in these matters. There is good ability now among many local demining teams. However, the noble Lord is right. It is extremely time-consuming. It can take up to an hour to search thoroughly an area of a square metre. If one thinks of the many square miles that are littered with these mines, it will obviously take a very long while to carry out the clearance. Automatic mine clearance is fine in certain countries that have power and have the facilities to use very expensive equipment. But most clearance is carried out locally by small groups who are specially trained to detect very carefully.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that our Ghurka colleagues are especially skilful in mine clearance?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I am sure they are. They have been so skilful in every other task they have ever been asked to undertake that I have no doubt that they are skilful in mine clearance too. I have not met them on mine clearance operations but I have met many others. Most British soldiers know how to do it.