Terrorism (Hansard, 17 December 1997)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, it would not be prudent to make specific allegations against individuals or organisations before there is 625 sufficient evidence to set in hand a criminal prosecution, deportation or exclusion. Countering the activities of those who may be seeking to assist terrorism outside the United Kingdom is a high priority for the police and the Security Service. Any credible information or intelligence is investigated. If this yields evidence that organisations or individuals are supporting terrorism, action is taken under the criminal law or under Immigration Act powers.

§ Viscount Waverley
My Lords, I recognise the sensitivity. However, this matter reflects badly on the United Kingdom. How extensive is the problem? Can the Minister say how many allegations have been received by his department or specialist agencies so far this year? Will the Government draw up a list of deemed terrorist organisations; and if so, how would inclusion be determined?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I absolutely reject the contention that anything to do with the fight against international terrorism reflects badly on this Government. The Home Secretary made an announcement in October that a consultation paper is being put out to deal with international terrorism. We are carefully considering the recommendations made in the most helpful report of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd; and we propose to introduce anti-terrorism legislation. There is some virtue in having a list. The United States has a list. There are some deficiencies in that approach because as soon as one lists or denominates certain organisations, they re-form—sometimes under different names. That is something we are considering. It cannot be in doubt that the Government are determined, as were their predecessor, to fight international terrorism.

§ Lord Marsh
My Lords, does the Minister accept that certain governments—particularly the Egyptian Government—have made specific allegations about named individuals in this country who they claim are actively promoting terrorism of the type which concluded with the massacre of tourists in Luxor? Has he received any such representations, some of them in public?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, representations are made at different levels to Her Majesty's Government. If those representations are made, the law must take its course, as with all other allegations of criminal conduct. If the allegations are found to be substantiated, either the criminal law is engaged or the Home Secretary uses his powers of deportation or exclusion. That is the proper way to deal with these matters.

§ Lord Callaghan of Cardiff
My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that there is anxiety about this matter. We certainly look forward to seeing the White Paper when it is published. As the nature of terrorism has certainly changed during the past 20 or 30 years, will he also look at our international obligations and 626 whether the laws in a number of countries can be harmonised a little, as indeed was the case a few years ago when hijacking was at its height and we harmonised practice between the G7 countries? Can the White Paper consider that aspect of the matter?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, that is something we are presently considering and comes from a particularly informed source. What we are doing—as the Home Secretary said in the Statement which I repeated to your Lordships' House—is looking at our present anti-terrorism legislation. It is piecemeal. One of its deficiencies is that it is focused too closely on the threat from Irish terrorism. The noble Lord, Lord Callaghan of Cardiff, rightly says that terrorism changes. International crime changes. We are determined to co-operate with our international partners in this fight, which is of interest to all civilised regimes.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, does the Minister acknowledge that complaints have been made by embassies and high commissions regarding the diversion of moneys collected ostensibly for charitable purposes to the acquisition of weapons by terrorists abroad? Notwithstanding the fact that the Charity Commissioners have powers to investigate the diversion of funds for unlawful purposes overseas, does he not agree that those have been very sparingly used and that his department might encourage the Charity Commissioners to expand their efforts in this direction?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, that indication will be transmitted. It may be of interest to your Lordships to know that the question of fundraising, under whatever umbrella, for acts of terrorism anywhere in the world is a matter specifically addressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, in paragraph 13.30 of his excellent report. It is something the Home Secretary is presently considering.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, is the Minister aware that one of the problems here comes from people who abuse our asylum-seeking system? They get asylum here and then promptly use the hospitality of this country to direct terrorism via e-mail and so on back to their home countries. If the Minister is saying that the Government are looking to tighten up the procedures and rules surrounding the granting of asylum to people like that, I assure him that he will have the support of this side of the House in contrast to the lack of support we had when we were in government from the then Opposition.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, what a shame! I was just about to commend the noble Lord for his statesmanlike approach. And then he went and spoilt it! The Home Secretary has made it plain that we intend to bring forward legislation to make it unlawful to conspire 627 in the United Kingdom to commit terrorist acts abroad. That remains the proper policy of Her Majesty's Government.