Deregulation (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 (Hansard, 4 December 1997)

§ Lord Dubs
rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 28th October be approved.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this order is to introduce measures which will remove burdens on business in Northern Ireland. It follows and builds on the general thrust of the 1996 Deregulation and Contracting Out (Northern Ireland) Order.
The Government are committed to cutting unnecessary red tape by introducing a simpler regulatory system for business. We are also conscious of the burdens regulations place on the citizen and are committed to seeking to improve the regulatory interface in this area. The order is consistent with the thrust of our efforts to improve the quality of regulation. The provisions in the order make good sense. That is demonstrated by the small but valuable response to the consultation exercise. Public comment was invited, and almost 300 individuals or bodies with a particular interest in the order were contacted directly and their 1500 comments sought. Only 22 responses were received. We have to assume that the rest did not feel strongly about the order one way or the other, or else they were just favourably inclined.
The order contains eight measures to benefit business. Of these measures, six will ensure that parity is maintained with deregulation orders which apply in Great Britain and which were made under powers contained in the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994. The six will remove constraints for new credit unions seeking registration, increase opportunities for the expansion and growth of credit unions and broaden the pool of savings and incomes from which members can directly benefit; they will remove restrictions and reduce costs on industrial and provident societies; they will remove resolution restrictions on private companies; they will increase the number of gaming machines permitted in registered clubs from two to three and allow the Department of Health and Social Services to vary this limit in future by subordinate legislation; they will extend the validity of a vehicle's first MoT certificate; and they will remove redundant controls on the manufacture, storage, sale and use of rag flock for upholstery.
The remaining two provisions are unique to Northern Ireland. Article 9 removes restrictions on the use of pre-payment meters for purchasing energy efficiency goods and services. Article 10 removes the requirement of exporters of potatoes to non-European Union countries to have a potato shipping licence.
The order is a sensible and reasonable provision. It removes unnecessary or outdated obstacles to commerce in Northern Ireland without compromising the Government's commitment to ensuring that adequate protection for the public is maintained. I beg to move.

§ Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, I, like, I am sure, all noble Lords, am in favour of deregulation. The proliferation of regulations is enormous. They are a terrible burden to small businesses, large businesses and government. Regulations grow like weeds. Therefore, the task of deregulation is a completely continuing one, just like gardening.
Some acts of deregulation are more significant than others. Some just tidy up the statute book, or parts of the statute book, which no one uses. Article 8 of the order repeals the Rag Flock Acts of 1911 and 1928. I do not imagine that will_ reduce the burden on business very much. It is probably quite some time since a business filled in a form required by those Acts. That is not a reason for not repealing the Acts if they are no longer required but it means that there is not much saving for business from that article.
There are some more significant changes, as the Minister set out, for credit unions, industrial and provident societies and for companies. They are desirable in themselves. The amendments to the potato marketing Act look to have some significance. However, it seems to me that by the order we are getting rid of most of the Act. Can the Minister say whether 1501 there is anything left of the potato marketing Act; and, if so, why it has been left? Why not repeal the whole affair?
The order is supposed to allow companies to save £7.5 million. I presume most of it is from the clauses relating to the credit unions, companies and industrial and provident societies, but it would be helpful to know that.

§ Lord Alderdice
My Lords, the Government are to be congratulated on bringing forward the order. The noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley, made a comparison with gardening. It was the setting up of committees that came most to my mind. Once established, committees, with a constant agenda of apologies, minutes, matters arising and the date of the next meeting, usually have a sufficient agenda to continue even when their purpose has long since been forgotten. It is often the same with regulations. As the noble Lord, Lord Cope, said, some of the regulations were established in 1911 and have continued until now. The Government are to be congratulated on bringing the order forward. We welcome all the changes, not least the fact that there will be estimated savings to Northern Ireland business of £7.5 million. That will be widely welcomed at home.

§ Lord Molyneaux of Killead
My Lords, I shall be brief in view of the importance of the succeeding debates. I am a little puzzled by the words in Article 7, vehicles adapted to carry more than eight passengers". We all recognise that Orders in Council cannot be amended. However, it would make the legislation more readily understood if we had an explanation as to the meaning of that phrase. Does it really mean "vehicles adapted" or does it mean "vehicles constructed"? It is difficult to envisage how a vehicle could be adapted and also comply with the road traffic and safety regulations.
The phrase I have just quoted also appears in the public processions legislation which is currently before your Lordships. The references in Article 7 will probably become law before the public processions Bill becomes law. I am sure the Minister will agree that it is important from the point of view of the police traffic division that it should have clarification on that point.

§ Viscount Simon
My Lords, I have one question on Article 7 concerning motor vehicle tests. It says that the first time an MoT is necessary it can last for a period of up to 13 months. Does this continue for ever and a day, which is not said? In other words, on successor periods, can it be a 13-month period or any other time when the test takes place; or does it have to be an exact 12-month period for successor tests?

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, I shall try to do justice to the questions that have been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Cope, asked about the financial savings to business. The main savings are on Article 6, dealing with gaming machines, where we estimate that businesses will save roughly £2.5 million; and on Article 9, dealing with electricity pre-payment meters, 1502 where we estimate the saving will be some £5 million. Smaller sums will be saved on various other measures that we have before us.
The noble Lord also asked about the potato marketing provisions. He asked why we did not repeal the whole of the Act. The sections in the Act dealing with the licences are repealed. However, I should like to look further into the question asked by the noble Lord and write to him.
The noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, asked about the use of the word "adapted" in relation to public service vehicles carrying more than eight passengers. That word is taken from the legislation that is being amended. It is my understanding that the intention is that it is to apply to all vehicles carrying more than eight passengers. If that is not correct, I shall write to the noble Lord. I shall also have to write to the noble Lord about the other point he raised.
I do not believe that the noble Lord. Lord Alderdice, asked a specific question to which he expected an answer. The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, asked about the extension of the length of the period under which MoTs will be carried out. Again, it is a fairly technical point as regards the time period. Although I believe that I know the answer I prefer to check. I shall write to the noble Viscount when I have had a chance to look into it. I hope that I have dealt with all the specific points that were raised.