Great Lakes Region, Africa (Hansard, 31 October 1996)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)
My Lords, there have been 1.7 million refugees in the region since 1994. Britain has provided over £130 million to help. The current insecurity in eastern Zaire has exacerbated an already critical 434 situation. Humanitarian agencies have sufficient stocks in the region to meet immediate needs but political and security difficulties are restricting delivery. The Government are supporting United Nations and European Union efforts to resolve this crisis and we are in contact with both Zaire and Rwanda to help defuse the situation.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, does the Minister agree that unless the underlying tensions of the Great Lakes area are tackled there will never be any chance of lasting peace? Will that not involve accountability for genocide, strengthening the administration of justice, definition of citizenship, the screened return of refugees, economic regeneration and building democratic institutions? What external support is envisaged for any ceasefire that can be arranged? In the meantime, what is being done together with NGOs to ensure an integrated and disciplined international humanitarian relief operation with all necessary protections?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, let me try as briefly as I can to give a flavour of the right answers to those many questions that the noble Lord asked. He is right to say that solving the underlying tensions in the area is absolutely critical. It is only when the warring factions within Zaire, let alone within Rwanda and Burundi, have decided that they wish to cease that we can be effective. Our experience over the past two years in Rwanda has been that once the fighting stopped we could help them—indeed we have helped them—to build up their administration of justice, to put their running of government in better order, to bring accountability for the genocide and to do the many things that he suggested.
But the real problem for all who want to help is that until the Banyamulenge—that is, the Zairean Tutsisand the Hutu Zairean troops come to some accommodation, it is almost impossible, however willing we may be, to give the humanitarian help that the people so desperately need. That is why, when I saw Prime Minister Kengo of Zaire last week and Foreign Minister Gasana of Rwanda this morning, I implored them—as Joan Burton, the president of the development council did just yesterday in Dublin—to bring about a ceasefire. With that ceasefire, not only will the humanitarian aid get through but we shall also be able to try to do some of the things that the noble Lord mentioned in his question.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the crux of the problem is that the Zairean armed forces have repeatedly and systematically attacked the Banyamulenge, in league with elements within the refugee camps which the international community has failed to disarm? Would it be a good idea now to address the problem of the prevalence of weapons among the Hutus in the camps and the flow of weapons into the eastern Zaire region, which the United Nations was supposed to be having a look at some months ago?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that the UN and the UNHCR in 435 particular have been seeking to take action against the flow of weapons into the region. But weapons do not simply go over the border from one of the countries in East Africa into Zaire. There are many ways in which those weapons reach the Interahamwe, who indeed have been aided and abetted on many occasions by Zairean forces who are not under the full control of Kinshasa. Zaire is a huge country. It is quite clear from my own experience and discussions that it is exceedingly difficult for Zaire at its centre, Kinshasa, to have any control over what is going on in eastern Zaire. All these matters are being worked on by the UN envoy, the EU envoy and the presidents in the region. There is at least one good piece of news: the regional ministers are meeting today in Kampala to discuss the crisis and regional heads of state will meet in Nairobi next Tuesday to see what other progress can be made together with the help from the UN and the EU.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, can the noble Baroness give us a progress report on the difficult task of detaining and bringing before Judge Goldstone's tribunal those who were guilty of instigating the genocidal activities in Rwanda in 1994? Is she aware of the information that some of the leaders of the Interahamwe are being given shelter in a Commonwealth country, namely, the Cameroon Republic? That is a fact that I believe she will be able to check quite soon.

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I shall certainly check on the last piece of information that the noble Lord gave. So far as concerns the progress report on bringing to book the perpetrators of the genocide, I know that progress is being made. It is not so fast as one would like because it is exceedingly difficult to gather the information. Perhaps I may write to the noble Lord with some greater detail than I can give him from memory at this moment.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the lesson of the whole Great Lakes story so far has been that, by failing to take effective action in time, the expense has proved exorbitant? Is it not therefore now essential to gear up the international community to timely intervention before this conflict spreads into the worst chapter of an appalling story as conflict overtakes the region as a whole?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, the noble Lord knows that I have every sympathy with taking preventive action where one can do so. But it is not enough for the neighbouring countries or the donor countries to take that action. It is only when the perpetrators of genocide and the mass killings that have taken place are prepared to work for peace and stop the killing that long-term success can be achieved. My officials are in daily contact with people on the ground. While there are large groups of people who want the ceasefire and an end to the killing, so long as the leaders of the groups are not stopped from the killing, however much help we give from outside—and my goodness, we have given it—the killing will not cease.
436 Two years ago at the height of the genocide in Rwanda I coined the phrase that people seemed to be "mad with killing fever". It is a kind of killing fever that sadly goes on in Zaire probably to a far greater extent than any of us have hitherto realised. We shall go on trying but we cannot do it without the governments and the people of those countries as well deciding to stop the killings.