The Cullen Report

HL Deb 16 October 1996 vol 574 cc1703-11

4.14 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scottish Office (The Earl of Lindsay)

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement on the Cullen Report which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. The Statement is as follows: "With permission, Madam Speaker, I should like to make a Statement about the publication of the report of Lord Cullen's inquiry and the government response. On 21st March, following a resolution of both Houses of Parliament, I appointed the Honourable Lord Cullen to inquire into 'the circumstances leading up to and surrounding the events at Dunblane Primary School, to consider the issues arising therefrom, to make such interim and final recommendations as may seem appropriate and to report as soon as practicable.' "Lord Cullen concluded that he should not make an interim report. He completed his report within the demanding timetable he set himself by the end of September. But I received a letter from the honourable Member for Hamilton saying that it would be 'wrong for the report to be published during any one of the party conferences'. I discussed that request with him, and with the honourable Members for Orkney and Shetland and Banff and Buchan, and with their approval I requested Lord Cullen to delay submitting his report to me until Monday 14th October. It is being published today, together with the Government's response, as a Command Paper. I can also tell the House that the report will be available on the Internet so that there will be access around the world for those who expressed support for the community of Dunblane.

"Madam Speaker, I am also grateful to you for your agreement that I should allow the families of the victims to receive copies of the report and the Government's response ahead of its presentation to Parliament.

"I am enormously grateful to Lord Cullen for the dedicated, prompt and efficient way in which he has carried out the inquiry. I appointed him in the knowledge of the careful way in which he conducted the Piper Alpha inquiry and the rigour and the practicality of his conclusions on that occasion. He approached the present inquiry with sensitivity, courtesy and care. As the inquiry proceeded, he deservedly gained the wide respect of the parties to the inquiry, the media and the general public. He has had to consider the most harrowing of circumstances and to acquaint himself with a number of very complex issues—issues which are of great concern to the people of Dunblane.

"It was right for there to be a full investigation of all the background to the events of that day and of the policy questions raised by them. And it was essential that the House had before it a full analysis and the facts before attempting to reach conclusions about further action.

"I can tell the House that we are going to accept all Lord Cullen's recommendations and in some respects intend to go further. Many of the recommendations relate to firearms legislation for which my right honourable and learned friend the Home Secretary has lead policy responsibility. He will be making a Statement about that immediately after me.

"Lord Cullen's report describes in detail the tragic events of Wednesday, 13th March. The gunman, Thomas Hamilton, entered Dunblane Primary School shortly after 9.30 a.m. and made his way to the gymnasium armed with two 9mm Browning self loading pistols and two 357 Smith and Wesson revolvers, together with 743 rounds of ammunition—all of which he lawfully held and which he legally kept at home together with more than 1,000 further rounds of ammunition. Within three or four minutes he fired 105 rounds with the 9mm Browning, resulting in the deaths of Mrs. Gwen Mayor and 16 children, injuring a further three teaching staff and 14 children. He then used the 357 Smith and Wesson to take his own life.

"Of the headteacher and his staff, the report says that they 'did everything that they possibly could to assist, far beyond what might reasonably have been expected of them.' Lord Cullen also commends the general quality of the work of Central Scotland Police and in particular the individual officers involved. He records the gratitude of the relatives and the school authorities for the help, support and professionalism of the force. From my own experience that day, and on the days that followed, I reinforce those tributes.

"He is, however, critical of the delay in providing information to victims' families. These criticisms were accepted by the Chief Constable of Central Scotland Police, who himself made a written submission to Lord Cullen identifying procedural inadequacies and suggesting improvements which Lord Cullen has endorsed. The Government will ensure that these issues are discussed with all police forces throughout the United Kingdom.

"An ambulance and a team of doctors and nurses from the local health centre were quickly on the scene. The health service's major incident plan was implemented and a number of expert teams from Stirling and Falkirk Royal Infirmaries went to the school. The report highlights the magnificent way in which all the health teams responded. The victims were taken to Stirling Royal Infirmary and the Falkirk and District Royal Infirmary. The most seriously injured were later transferred to Yorkhill Children's Hospital. The professionalism of all concerned undoubtedly saved lives.

"The report sets out the facts about Thomas Hamilton and his background, and Lord Cullen has considered, with expert advice from a psychologist and psychiatrist, what may have prompted Hamilton's atrocious act. He concludes that 'the violence which he used would not have been predictable.' Members of the House will want to study the report for themselves, but I conclude that this was an act of calculated wickedness.

"Lord Cullen's report considers in great detail the granting and renewal of the firearms licenses which Thomas Hamilton had held since 1977. He points to weaknesses in the system used by Central Scotland Police for the carrying out of enquiries and the making of decisions about firearms applications.

"In particular, the report is critical of the former Deputy Chief Constable of Central Scotland Police, Mr. Douglas McMurdo, who was appointed earlier this year to H.M. Inspectorate of Constabulary for Scotland. I thought it right, Madam Speaker, that Mr. McMurdo should have sight of the relevant paragraphs in the report and he has today offered his resignation, which I have accepted. He has informed the Scottish Office that he also intends to resign from Central Scotland Police. The House will respect his decision.

"The report makes two recommendations, which I have accepted, concerning improvements in school security. I will be introducing a specific grant to assist authorities to improve the security of school pupils and staff. All authorities will benefit, and I intend that councils should have as much discretion as possible on the measures to be taken. I would expect such measures to be in line with the action plans which Lord Cullen encourages individual schools to draw up. They will add to the measures which the Government announced in May in response to the recommendations of the working group on school security.

"Two further recommendations which I have accepted concern the vetting and supervising of adults working with children and young people. One concerns the development of a Scottish vocational qualification in respect of work with children, including the organisation of clubs and child development and protection. The other involves accreditation by a national body of clubs and groups involved with young people. This body would ensure that there are adequate checks on the suitability of leaders and workers with unsupervised access to children and young people. I also intend to introduce legislation to allow all youth organisations access to criminal records and to certain other information which does not relate directly to criminal convictions and is held by the police. I appreciate that this may cause concern in some quarters but I believe that the safety and protection of our children must come first.

"The whole country has been struck by the courage and dignity with which the community of Dunblane has worked together in the aftermath of this terrible atrocity. They now look to this House for rapid and united action."

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

4.23 p.m.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement made by the Secretary of State for Scotland in another place. I also thank the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland for giving some of us the opportunity this morning to read the report of the Honourable Lord Cullen. I found it to be most helpful, although I should stress to the House that we read it in a state of purdah. We were pretty well locked in, so that there should be no premature exposure of the report until it was officially published.

The Minister has again told the House of the dreadful circumstances which occasioned the need for such a report and I too wish again to emphasise, and I make no apology for this, the enormity of the act which shocked all Scotland. In fact, the shock went much further afield. Put shortly—and I am repeating what was said by the Minister and Secretary of State—one man with four handguns and about 750 rounds of ammunition in a maximum time of four minutes killed 16 children and a teacher. A further 14 children and three teachers were injured.

I associate myself and this side of the House very strongly with the tributes paid by the Minister and the Secretary of State to the emergency services, the doctors, the nurses, the police and others, who worked as we have come to expect them to do in such circumstances. When we deal with the Bill which the Government have promised we must not forget this terrible background to our debates.

The Honourable Lord Cullen has produced a report which is commendably penetrating and informed. Some of us may think his conclusions lack bite but, on reflection, I think he carefully left the tough decisions to Parliament. That is, of course, as it should be because they are difficult decisions. He has given us the facts and pointed us in certain directions; it is for us to find out how we can change the law to make another Dunblane unthinkable.

The Statement made by the Secretary of State deals largely with what may be termed the Scottish responsibilities, but of course the whole of the United Kingdom is ultimately involved. The Home Office Minister and my noble friend Lord McIntosh of Haringey will deal with the problem of gun control. That must be a United Kingdom law: there is no other way of dealing with the matter.

I wish to say a very brief word about the deputy chief constable. It is always regrettable when a senior member of the police finds it necessary to resign from the force. It may well be that further scrutiny of the report will give some indication as to why Mr. McMurdo felt it necessary to take the action he has taken. As the Minister and the Secretary of State have said, he thought it was perhaps the most honourable thing for him to do. However, it is always regrettable when someone has given a lifetime to a career and then decides that he must go.

One of the difficulties shown by the report, to which there are no easy answers—in fact the Minister dealt with this—is the question of school security. It is not easy, without having pupils incarcerated in a Fort Knox look alike, to get real security in a school. Of course we do not want anything like that. Today one thinks of the success in town centres of street videos, which have reduced the incidence of crime. That is one way in which I hope we could use modern techniques. We should be conscious of the fact that, even in town centres, they have not completely eliminated crime. But they have undoubtedly helped.

When we get the Bill we shall have amendments moved in a spirit of co-operation and helpfulness, which we believe is what such a Bill demands. I believe that there should be a free vote in both Houses, although I am fairly sure that the Government will not be willing to go quite that far. I feel there are some matters on which we should take the view of the House and not by any means a party view.

We on this side of the House want a tough and uncompromising Bill dealing with the proliferation of guns, school safety and the rigid vetting of those involved with children at all ages and at all levels. The Secretary of State has promised support in terms of money to implement security in schools and also to increase the staff who will be able to vet and examine the background of people who deal with children. We thank him for that and assure him again that we shall co-operate in every way we can to achieve as much security as possible. All of us in both Houses of Parliament have a heavy responsibility. We will be closely watched by the people of Scotland, who are still haunted by the dreadful spectre of Dunblane.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, I too welcome the Secretary of State's Statement. I welcome the report which I had an opportunity to read this morning in somewhat restricted circumstances. Nevertheless, it is an extremely important report. It was a terrific responsibility on Lord Cullen who had to plumb the depths of human depravity in order to find out why this man acted in such a way and then of course—extremely important—assess how it was that he was able to do so. He had to look at the mechanics of our laws in Scotland and elsewhere to see where we went wrong.

There is no criticism of the police in their handling of the direct situation which was excellent. However, there is criticism of them in relation to the licensing process and it is absolutely essential to put that right. It is obvious that this man had a large collection of guns. He was able to fire off rapidly 107 rounds of ammunition killing 17 people and wounding others. He could do that only because there was enormous slackness in the application of our laws.

The report reveals that the deputy chief constable, who has now resigned, received a strongly—worded report about this man. Such was the complexity of dealing with the man, whom he knew, and the fact that an appeal might well not be successful, he took an easy course. We shall back the recommendations of the report: we are delighted that the Secretary of State is backing them all. The report contains the important recommendation that an appeal against a decision to grant a licence should be only on grounds of new circumstances or questions of fact; it should not question the judgment of the chief constable. That new provision will be absolutely vital in improving the system for the licensing of guns of all sorts.

I join with the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, in approving strongly of the decision to fund the improvement of security in schools. That funding should not only take account of improvements in security—fences, doors and that sort of thing—but also the provision of staff. In small schools in the countryside, a good janitor is of enormous importance. Permanent funding of staff for security purposes, as well as funding for structural matters, will have to be examined by the Secretary of State.

The main recommendation of Lord Cullen is that the licensing process and the holding of guns should be conducted through a system of gun clubs controlling everything to do with the firing of revolvers; locks on guns; the removal of parts; and holding guns in the gun club. The Government have rightly accepted the second recommendation which is a complete ban.

However, the ban is not complete. It is a complete ban on all guns over calibre 22. As we all know, a calibre 22 gun can do damage. Therefore, the 20 per cent. of guns which remain will have to be under the same strict control through gun clubs as was proposed by Lord Cullen for all handguns. Surely the same standards apply to 22 calibre guns as apply to the larger calibres which were used by Hamilton in his appalling act. That is the main snag I find with the admirable attitude and proposals of the Secretary of State with regard to the report.

It is extremely important that we get this matter right in order to restore public confidence. The report goes a long way towards that, as does the Government's attitude. We shall do all we can to help. I believe, however, that the remaining 20 per cent. of guns pose the same problems as the whole of the gun bulk.

The Earl of Lindsay

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for the sentiments they expressed. The noble Lord, Lord Mackie, says that this is an extremely important report. That is an opinion which I commend to all noble Lords.

I am grateful also that both noble Lords have promised their support and co-operation in seeking to bring legislation to the statute book in what we hope will be a very small number of months, possibly this side of Christmas.

Both noble Lords drew attention to the firearms issue which lies at the heart of the incident and the report. I remind the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, that the enormity of the statistics which attach to both Mr. Hamilton's personal ownership of guns and those which he took to the school are partly the reason that we now have 24 recommendations, from the 28 of Lord Cullen, on firearms alone.

The noble Lord, Lord Mackie, went on to discuss the remainder of the guns which are not to be banned outright. I remind the House that overall responsibility for firearms legislation rests with the Home Secretary. My noble friend Lady Blatch will shortly be repeating a Statement made by the Home Secretary and will be able to explore further that area with the House.

The noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, focused rightly on school security and mentioned the progress being made by CCTV in other areas. Lord Cullen points out that it is very important to strike a balance in this area. On the one hand, schools are a vital part of the community. They welcome both parents and children throughout the day and very often welcome other community activities in the evenings, at weekends and holiday times. Therefore, there is a balance to be struck between the fortress and prison, which is one extreme, and completely open-plan style, which is the other. Lord Cullen makes that point in the report. I would commend anyone with an interest in that aspect to read that part of the report.

The noble Lord, Lord Mackie, mentioned the grounds on which appeals will be possible against a decision by a chief constable in refusing to grant a firearms licence. That is an issue which will go out to consultation. It is also an issue with which my noble friend Lady Blatch will deal in greater detail.

4.38 p.m.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

My Lords, I see from a very rapid look at the report that the Scottish Standing Conference of Voluntary Youth Organisations gave evidence to Lord Cullen on the matter of vetting adults involved in work with young people. As a member of the Council of the Guide Association in Scotland, I ask my noble friend whether the views of organisations like the Scouts and Guides, the Boys Brigade, the Girls Brigade and the cadet forces will be taken into account before any detailed decisions are taken which may involve their way of working.

The Earl of Lindsay

My Lords, I can reassure my noble friend Lady Carnegy. There will be full consultation on the proposals for accreditation and vetting.

Lord Taylor of Gryfe

My Lords, I did not have the privilege of seeing the report until about half an hour ago and therefore, I cannot comment on the detail. However, I welcome what has been said with regard to achieving a consensus on all sides of the House. In the past few weeks I have been disturbed that newspapers in Scotland, particularly the popular press, and some politicians have started to develop a political campaign arising out of this tragedy. We would be failing the people of Dunblane, and we would be failing our own sense of responsibility, if we were to try in any way to exploit this situation to achieve any advantage of any kind. I hope very much that the assurance given by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, that the Opposition will play their full part in being helpful in devising good legislation will be accepted by the Government and that we shall have a real consensus in the development of sensible policies.

The Earl of Lindsay

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, makes a good point. From the start of this chain of events we have placed a high priority on moving forward in consensus and with as much co-operation as possible. Therefore, we similarly regret the excesses of some in recent weeks which have led them to introduce party politics into the Cullen Report and into the consideration of the Dunblane incident. That fails many more people than just those involved. I believe that the people of Dunblane and all those affected in any way by that incident expect the parliamentary response to the report and to the whole incident to show greater co-operation than some have displayed in recent weeks.

The Earl of Mar and Kellie

My Lords, I wish to return to the accreditation of voluntary youth and community workers. I may have misheard the noble Earl but I think he said that voluntary youth organisations would have to be accredited rather than individuals. I hope that that is not right because I think it important that anyone taking part in youth and community work should be accredited, irrespective of how they work. Normally adults require great encouragement to become involved in youth work. Therefore I regret, but certainly accept, that accreditation may possibly be regarded as a hurdle. The good side is that not being accredited presumably means that one will not run youth clubs or similar organisations.

I have two further points. First, I believe it will be important to lay stress on the role of people who give references leading to accreditation. Secondly—I regret this—I believe there will need to be an appeals procedure because some people will no doubt be unhappy at not being accredited.

The Earl of Lindsay

My Lords, the noble Earl raises some important issues on the proposals for accreditation and for vetting. As I said earlier, this is an area where we shall consult all those involved in order to find the best way forward. I should point out to the House that Lord Cullen himself decided against compulsory registration. However, he believes that voluntary accreditation by a national body would be a sensible way forward. What is also recommended, and accepted by the Government, is the need for wider access to information about individuals who may well be employed or involved in those groups and organisations. We very much hope that the consultation process surrounding these two proposals will address the concerns that many will have in this area. For instance, in Scotland alone there are an estimated 80,000 volunteers and 500,000 young people involved in youth activities. That gives one an indication of just how carefully the new proposals for this area must be constructed.