HL Deb 18 November 1996 vol 575 cc1092-4

2.42 p.m.

Viscount Waverley asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will use today's international conference on Afghanistan at the United Nations to call for, or support, an immediate and total arms embargo by all states in the region.

Lord Chesham

My Lords, we urge all states to comply with the UN Security Council resolution adopted on 22nd October which called inter alia for an end to the supply of arms and ammunition and which the UK was instrumental in drafting. We shall also continue to urge all parties and states to co-operate fully with the UN special mission to Afghanistan.

Viscount Waverley

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me as regards the need for the international community to become serious about Afghanistan? Will he recognise that mandatory action, rather than resolutions, to halt the flow of weapons is overdue and is prolonging the civil war?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, when the resolution was tabled on 22nd October we opposed the inclusion of language which would amount to the imposition of a mandatory arms embargo. We do not consider that an embargo would be enforceable and we are concerned that the Security Council would lose credibility if it passed a legally binding resolution which it could not enforce.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, what is the position of Her Majesty's Government regarding the demand, reported in some of today's newspapers, by the Taliban to take over representation of Afghanistan at the United Nations? Further, and more generally, can the Minister say what criteria have to be satisfied in a civil war situation for a particular party to assume control of the UN delegation for that country?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, we recognise states, not governments. We have contact at official level with a wide range of the factions involved in the civil war. I would prefer not to go further with the matter at this stage.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, does not history afford caution against mandatory action in Afghanistan?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, we do not believe that mandatory action anywhere, unless it is enforceable, should be brought into account.

Baroness Blackstone

My Lords, can the Minister comment on the statement by Mr. Portillo on a radio programme this morning that the UK has one of the tightest systems for regulating arms sales? Moreover, in the light of arms sales to Afghanistan, and the recent revelation that a British company has been exporting arms via Albania to Rwanda, can the Minister say whether or not those regulations should now be tightened further?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, we consider all export licence applications for defence equipment on a case-by-case basis in the light of established criteria and international guidelines to which we are committed through the UN, EU, OSCE and so on. These take into account inter alia whether a proposed transfer would prolong or aggravate an existing arms conflict. We have not received an ELA for defence equipment for Afghanistan since 1992.

Viscount Waverley

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether there are any representatives of Afghanistan at today's conference?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, I believe that the noble Viscount is referring to a conference taking place in New York today. As I understand it, there is no Afghanistan representation at the conference as it is a wide-ranging UN conference which aims to try to get the international community's strong support for the UN special mission to Afghanistan.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, does the Minister agree that arms exporters are very ingenious? Have the Government evolved any means whereby they can interfere or stop the process whereby a British firm which itself exports arms can and does export to an embargoed country by ordering through companies of another country, for example, in Mexico? Those arms are then exported to the embargoed country without passing through this country at all. Is that a position which escapes government control?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, it is a situation which it is almost impossible for the Government to control. I can also say that where America has tried to utilise the Helms-Burton legislation so far as concerns outside countries—for example, Cuba—it seems to have attracted, and indeed still attracts, great distaste throughout the world. That may be a parallel to what is being requested in this situation.

Lord Richard

My Lords, perhaps the Minister can help further. My noble friend asked whether there were any parallels to be drawn between the trickle—or, indeed, the flood—of arms which seems to be going into Afghanistan and the arms which appear to have got into Rwanda. Can the noble Lord tell us what rules there are in respect of British companies possibly selling arms to Afghanistan? Can he also tell us how the rules in respect of Afghanistan compare with those in relation to the sale of arms to Rwanda? Finally, have the Government any knowledge of the sale of arms to Afghanistan and Rwanda by British companies?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, the rules are exactly the same. We are talking about an export licence application. There has been no export licence application for any defence equipment for Afghanistan since 1992. We are not aware of any British company selling arms to Afghanistan, and we are not aware of any British company directly selling arms to Rwanda.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether the Government are aware of any indirect sale of arms to Rwanda?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, it seems to me that we are moving away somewhat from the Question on the Order Paper.