Asylum Seekers: Benefits (Hansard, 6 November 1996)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Baroness Cumberlege)
My Lords, the Government take very seriously the recent High Court ruling that social services departments should provide residential care. We recognise the 641 concerns expressed by local authorities and we are appealing against the ruling. Officials from relevant government departments are working with the local authorities most concerned to assess the scale of the problem.

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the High Court on 7th October, the judge said that he found it impossible to believe that Parliament had intended that an asylum seeker lawfully in this country should be made destitute, should be starving or should have his health and life put at great risk? In the circumstances, does the Minister agree that an enormous additional and urgent burden has been placed on local authorities, even while waiting for the appeal? As the situation is desperate, will the Minister meet soon at least with the London local authorities, which face the larger part of the responsibility, in order to ascertain what progress can be made urgently to deal with those destitute people?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, clearly, I do not wish to go into the court case of 7th October because we are appealing against the decision. We believed that it was a reinterpretation of the National Assistance Act 1948. The noble Lord is correct in saying that the judgment causes problems for local authorities, and we are working closely with them and monitoring the situation.

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, will the Minister accept that, originally, the Government expected that they would save £200 million by cutting benefits to asylum seekers but that local authorities expect that next year the cost will be in excess of £190 million and that only a fraction of that will be reimbursed by government? Is it not clear that the Government's savings are being exported to local authorities as costs and that in order to make very slender net savings in public funds we are inflicting a huge amount of needless misery?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I believe that the noble Baroness has underestimated the savings. The information that we have from local authorities suggests that by the end of the year they may face costs of about £16 million. However, the estimates are changing all the time and the number of people being placed by the London authorities is somewhat lower than originally predicted.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, further to that point, is the Minister aware that the London Government Association estimates that next year the costs in London alone are likely to reach f100 million? Is she further aware that the directors of social services, meeting in Edinburgh on 16th October, stated that they could not find the sums for which they are legally liable without raiding their community care budgets? Is that what the Government wish?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, the Government wish to win their appeal, which they are taking again to the courts, because they do not believe that the judgment was right.
642 It is very hard for local authorities to be accurate in their estimates, as I said in reply to the noble Baroness. However, I believe that it is interesting to look at the figures on this issue. The number of people seeking asylum rose from 4,000 to 44,000 in seven years. Furthermore, there appeared to be a significant fall in the benefit claims between March and August; there was a reduction of 35 per cent. when the benefit changes came into operation. When the benefits were restored after the Court of Appeal judgment, applications from asylum seekers already in this country rose by 82 per cent. in one month.

§ Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes
My Lords, as this was a decision of the European Court of Justice, can my noble friend tell the House whether it is applying the same rule to all the other member states of the EU to which it should apply, and will it cost them as much as it is said it will cost us?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, it was not a judgment of the European Court; it was a judgment of a domestic court.

§ The Earl of Sandwich
My Lords, will the Minister accept that the longer the delay the more the burden will fall on the Churches and the voluntary organisations? Will the Government make special provision in that case?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, we have no evidence that that is the case. However, as I said in reply to earlier questions, we are monitoring the situation.

§ Baroness Robson of Kiddington
My Lords, does the Minister agree, as she stated on 4th March 1996, that even if the Government win their appeal, under the Children Act they are responsible for ensuring that the social services departments look after the children?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, yes, we are making provision for that. The noble Baroness is right in saying that under that Act we have a responsibility. What is in question is the National Assistance Act.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that vast numbers of asylum seekers are coming to this country and that some are genuine but many are not? Is she further aware that those who are not genuine are placing the Government in the absurd position of having to spend vast sums of money on them which could be much better spent on other social services?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, your Lordships will know that, really, I am an old softie and that I give in to many requests. However, I believe that in this case my noble friend is right. I do not believe that taxpayers should have to support unlimited numbers of people arriving in this country without the means of support. Of course, those who are genuine can, on entry, claim social services benefits and housing and we support that.

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, will the Minister give an undertaking that, if by any chance the Government do 643 not win their appeal, soon after the court's decision they will come to the House and explain what they propose to do to help local authorities in this difficult situation?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, yes, of course we will have to review the situation if we do not win on appeal, and I am sure that the noble Lord will be ready with another Question.