HL Deb 20 May 1996 vol 572 cc658-66

3.12 p.m.

Read a third time.

Schedule 6 [Repeals]:

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scottish Office (The Earl of Lindsay) moved the following amendment: Page 31, line 36, column 3, leave out "69" and insert "69(3)".

The noble Earl said: My Lords, the amendment seeks to correct a drafting error in Schedule 6 to the Bill. The schedule has three general purposes: to make provision for changes to regulation-making powers which, as the House will recall, was the subject of some discussion at an earlier stage; to remove the requirement for the Secretary of State's approval before the commencement of building works other than those that have been exempted in regulations; and to make minor appeals consequential on the setting up of the Scottish qualifications authority.

It is to this last category that the amendment is addressed. The schedule addresses Section 129 of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 and Section 69 of the Self-Governing Schools etc. (Scotland) Act 1989 to remove inappropriate references to the Scottish Examination Board.

In relation to the 1989 Act, the intention was to repeal Section 69(3), which allowed the board to prepare, distribute and monitor testing in primary schools. However, the effect of the drafting error is to repeal the section in its entirety. That would repeal Section 69(1) and Section 69(2) dealing with regulations relating to testing in primary schools. That was clearly not our intention. I beg to move the amendment.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation. As he has already intimated in correspondence, we are aware that this is a technical amendment and is necessary. We therefore have no objection to its being included.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

An amendment (privilege) made.

The Earl of Lindsay

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

The Bill before the House is a balanced package of measures ranging from important improvements in the existing policies on school boards and placing requests, through to the restructuring of the qualifications and assessment arrangements in Scotland, to measures facilitating the implementation of our policies on pre-school education.

Part I of the Bill provides for the establishment of the Scottish qualifications authority which will continue, in a single body, the high-quality service provided by the Scottish Examination Board and the Scottish Vocational Education Council. During the progress of the Bill, particular attention has been drawn to two main areas: the membership of the board of SQA; and the role and position of the accreditation committee.

I believe that the amendment which I brought forward and the assurances that I have been able to offer noble Lords provided sufficient reassurance on these points.

I now turn to Part II of the Bill upon which we have perhaps spent the most time in our deliberations to date. The provisions of this part were designed to tackle a problem which I know is recognised on all sides of this House; namely, the need for greater provision of pre-school education in Scotland.

The time we have taken on Part II has been very well spent. We have been able to clear up some of the initial confusion that has surrounded this part of the Bill. The financial framework which will underpin the voucher system was perhaps the biggest area where clarity of debate initially eluded us. I wrote to many noble Lords present shortly after the Committee stage. I hope that letter was helpful.

Other areas of concern to noble Lords in relation to Part II related to the possibility of fraud; the quality of pre-school education to be provided; and the scope and timetable for the evaluation of the initiative's pilot year. I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords about all of these issues. As regards fraud, we have and will ensure that every precaution is taken.

The quality of provision is another priority for the Government. In the voluntary and private sectors only providing centres which complete a Profile of Education Provision to the satisfaction of Her Majesty's inspectors will be admitted onto the scheme. Moreover, every such provider admitted will be inspected by Her Majesty's inspectors as quickly as possible.

On Report, we discussed at some length the evaluation of the initiative's pilot year. As I said then, the Government have no desire to conduct this evaluation in private. We will share the results as widely as possible and will also keep Parliament fully informed.

I am confident that the voucher initiative will be a great success. Parents want it and, over time, I hope that noble Lords who have not been convinced in the course of our deliberations will be persuaded of its value.

The amendments to the School Boards (Scotland) Act 1989, contained in Part III and Schedule 4 of the Bill, are intended to improve the workings of that Act in the light of operational experience. The provisions follow from last year's consultation and I believe were generally supported by this House.

I should at this point thank the noble Lords, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove and Lord Ewing of Kirkford for their help in highlighting the need for an amendment to the conflict of interest provisions in this part of the Bill. I thank my noble friend Lady Carnegy of Lour for also applying her expert eye.

While reservations were expressed about the detail of the proposals in Part IV of the Bill, the principle of amending the legislation on placing requests to enable places to be retained for incomers at certain schools was also supported.

Since the Bill was first introduced last November, it has been the subject of detailed and careful scrutiny. I have been grateful for the thoughtful and well-considered debate that has taken place and believe that the Bill has benefited greatly from it.

When a Scottish Select Committee of this House met in Glasgow to hear evidence, it was only the second time that that procedure had been used. Such evidence-taking has proved most beneficial in bringing out the issues of most concern to those affected by the Bill. Having read the evidence taken by the Committee, I should like to congratulate my noble friend Lord Goold, who, as chairman, guided the committee and the witnesses sensitively and efficiently through some quite complex issues.

During Committee and Report stages, and indeed today, we considered a number of amendments. In the main those amendments sought to clarify the intentions behind the Bill's provisions. I believe that the concerns that lay behind them were answered and, where necessary, reassurances were given.

There are a number of noble Lords here today who have taken a particular interest in this Bill. I should like to offer them my thanks. The noble Lords, Lord Ewing, Lord Carmichael and Lord Sewel, contributed to and indeed instigated many of the debates which reached to the heart of the Bill's provisions. The noble Lords sought clarification not only as to the effect of the Bill but also as to how the Government intend to implement it. I am grateful for that as it has given me an opportunity to explain our intentions more fully.

I should also like to mention my noble friend Lord Dundee and the noble Viscount, Lord Dunrossil, who took part fully during the special committee sessions in Glasgow and made thoughtful and interesting contributions through their questions there. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, took full part throughout our scrutiny of the Bill, but especially during the sessions in Glasgow.

I should also draw attention to the constructive contributions made on a wide number of occasions by the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun of Abernethy. I was especially impressed that, alone among us, the noble Lady made her own calculation of the appropriateness of the value of the voucher, using her own experience as a grandmother in Scotland.

The noble Lords, Lord Sempill and Lord Addington, made thoughtful and thought provoking contributions in the long discussions on Part II of the Bill. I should also like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, for bringing to bear her great knowledge and expertise in assisting our consideration of this legislation. Finally, I thank my noble friend Lady Carnegy for her well considered and thoughtful contributions based on her experience of the Scottish education system. I also thank my noble friend Lord Courtown who did much work behind the scenes.

During the time that the Bill has been before the House, we have shared the experience and expertise derived from many different backgrounds, which has added to the quality of the Bill. I believe that the Bill takes forward initiatives which will enable our present system, with its high and improving standards, to cater for the challenges that lie ahead. The improvements that this House has brought to the Bill are to be welcomed. I hope that noble Lords will continue to take a close interest in the development of the Scottish education system. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(The Earl of Lindsay.)

3.25 p.m.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I shall just say a few words. I have already quite profusely, I believe, thanked the Minister for his efforts and willingness to explain the different parts of the Bill. The Bill had a certain interest in that it started off, as the Minister said, as the second Bill for which there was a special Select Committee which looked at its background and examined witnesses. It was a very valuable experiment in Glasgow which will be of great help to those in another place, as they will be able to read the report and the evidence of the expert witnesses.

Secondly, the Committee stage of the Bill took place in the Moses Room. For many of us it was not the most pleasant experience. We felt that we were away from things and I, personally, should not be very keen for the Committee stage of an important Scottish Bill to take place away from the Floor of the House. Unlike the other place, we do not have much space available other than the Moses Room. Therefore, I hope that other Committee stages can take place on the Floor of the House.

There is general agreement with the principles in Part I of the Bill. We all accept that change is needed and between us we have been able to achieve a modus vivendi. Certainly, whatever changes are made at the other end of the building, they will be based on the debates that took place in this House.

Part II of the Bill is still controversial. I am sure that it will arouse even more controversy in another place. There were two special points on which we felt the Bill was inadequate or totally wrong. One was that children with special needs are not given the consideration that we hoped they would receive. They will be the real losers. Then, there was the innovation of the voucher scheme which we strongly opposed, as the Minister will no doubt remember. I imagine that it will be opposed in the other place by many Members, perhaps not all from the party that I represent in this House. The reaction generally from all the education authorities and practically every local authority in Scotland has been that the voucher system is divisive and inefficient. Unless it is introduced very quickly, as has already been intimated, when we become the government it will not go forward.

We welcome the other parts of the Bill. The Minister and his partners have done a reasonably good job in improving parts of the Scottish education system.

Lord Addington

My Lords, the Minister has conducted the Bill through this House with his usual and at times quite irritating charm, disarming many arguments. As the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, said, the first part of the Bill has been generally welcomed. It tries to bring all the qualifications under one heading and that will be universally welcomed. It is probably something which should be done more widely and at far greater speed throughout the land.

Parts III and IV of the Bill have some weight and were discussed accordingly. However, I do not feel that we on these Benches or indeed those on this side of the House will ever agree on Part II. There are many questions about the way in which the system has been brought in and the need for it. Any benefits that there are for certain parts of Scotland will probably not apply to other parts, simply because of the diversity of provision. There are some places where local authorities have managed to meet the needs of pre-school education and other areas where there is no provision. The Bill may be a mixed blessing. There may possibly be some benefit from it, but overall we believe that it is an inappropriate tool for the job.

With regard to the procedure used for the Bill, it was extremely beneficial to have the Select Committee in Glasgow. The information received gave us an insight into the experience of those who will deal with the legislation. I suggest that such procedure should be brought into more Bills. It would be wholly beneficial. There was informed discussion on the Bill with those people who will be affected by it.

Part II of the Bill usually received condemnation—at least in relation to the implications of the voucher system. The best managed by those not proposing the Bill was apathy. That suggests something about the Bill which the Government did not take on board. Nevertheless, the procedure proved very informative. I hope that something of that kind will be brought more often into our proceedings.

Unfortunately, those discussions were followed by proceedings in the Moses Room. Part II of the Bill is controversial. There was direct disagreement. At that time it was felt by Members of the Committee that they wanted to vote to express an opinion. That could not be done with that procedure. It meant that the Report stage was to a degree mangled and used for a different purpose. Perhaps I may suggest that the usual channels should consider the matter. If it is intended to use that procedure again—it can be used only for certain Bills—perhaps we should invent a new procedure which enables us to gather the information, as we did in Glasgow. That would go for any Bill, not just a Scottish Bill. It might prove beneficial.

This Bill is something of a curate's egg. I hope that the beneficial parts of it are enjoyed to the full and that the bad pieces are left well alone.

3.30 p.m.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

My Lords, I wish to make some comments because this has been a noteworthy Bill and has had a noteworthy passage through this House, as others have said, at two levels; first, it is not an insignificant Bill; and, secondly, its passage has demonstrated what the new procedure adopted by your Lordships for Scottish Bills can do.

After Second Reading we took evidence for two days in Glasgow. That evidence came from 10 organisations giving verbal evidence and seven giving written evidence as well as the Minister for Education in Scotland, though education is not part of my noble friend's portfolio in this House. The evidence was then published.

Committee stage took place off the Floor of the House. I listened with interest to what was said. I am bound to say that I reacted slightly differently. I felt that, without the pressures of feeling that Scottish legislation was taking up the time of this House and of noble Lords who have to attend to the legislation for the whole of the United Kingdom, we were able to take the time needed in the Moses Room. Certainly Moses looking down on us with his tablets of stone did not always help. But I felt that it was a good exercise and that we were able to go more carefully into the Bill than we otherwise would have done. I hope therefore that we do not lightly discard that procedure. It is true that we could only adopt amendments that were agreed by everybody, and that may be part of the problem of noble Lords opposite. However, the votes came when we came to Report stage. The Opposition often wait until then anyway. I did not feel that that was a loss, but it is worthy of consideration.

If we pass this Bill and it goes to another place, honourable Members will have before them a great deal of information to help them in their consideration knowing not only that those 17 organisations gave evidence, but that all the membership behind those organisations were in a sense represented. Therefore a large part of the population of Scotland was involved and that is bound to be helpful.

With regard to the Bill, Part I proved uncontroversial. I was glad to have the opportunity to explore with my noble friend the question of the independence of the accreditation committee. I was grateful, as I am sure were other noble Lords who took part, that he was able to table an amendment to clarify for certain its independence.

Our consideration of Part II, which set the scene for the nursery education voucher scheme, mainly because the new procedure gave us time and involved so many Scots, was revealing in four important ways. I shall mention them briefly because they are important. It revealed an extraordinary lack of confidence among local authorities and teachers' unions that, as provision expands, parents with the new influence and power that the vouchers give them will choose the nursery or play group which suits them best. But if the local authority has been offering and continues to offer the best in the area, that is precisely what the parents will choose.

Our evidence showed fear—probably entirely unjustified—among local authorities and teachers that parents' good sense will not prevail. One could also detect a lack of appreciation of the benefit that would come through the increased involvement of parents when the voucher scheme is introduced. Nursery education must involve parents to the maximum extent if it is to succeed. If vouchers bring nursery providers extra work, it is probably worth doing for the parental interest it will involve. That point was not taken by the local authorities or the teachers' representatives.

The consideration of that part of the Bill was also revealing in that it appeared to show a total lack of appreciation that in modern times a far more realistic way of funding the expansion of provision in the community is by bringing in public and private resources in partnership. That understanding is increasingly recognised by all political parties across the developed world. It is sad if it is not yet so in Scotland, particularly in an area such as nursery education where private resources are already involved and fit in so naturally.

During our consideration of Part III of the Bill, which on the whole was also uncontroversial, the explanation given by the Minister on the conflict of interest clause which he introduced was extremely helpful. He has since written to me, and I believe the letter went to other noble Lords, amplifying what the last paragraph of his new clause means. He says that he will continue to look at the matter. I am not sure whether it was the right answer, but I hope to talk with him again. It may be necessary to continue with the subject in another place; I am not yet convinced about that.

Not least because of our newly-enhanced ability to scrutinise the Bill—not just at Westminster but also in Scotland—and because of the good nature and courtesy of everybody concerned, and the grasp that my noble friend the Minister has shown of the issues, both the broader and more detailed ones, I believe that what we have achieved will be of great assistance to the other place. My noble friend's grasp of the Bill was remarkable bearing in mind that education does not normally come within his portfolio in Scotland. He usually has to think about agriculture and the environment. However, everybody showed a great conscientiousness when discussing the Bill and I hope that it is accepted.

3.37 p.m.

The Earl of Lindsay

My Lords, I am grateful for the comments made by noble Lords. The noble Lords, Lord Carmichael and Lord Addington, and indeed my noble friend Lady Carnegy, paid compliments on the value of the evidence taken in Glasgow. I endorse that. We believe strongly that the direct access that the procedure gave Scottish organisations and individuals to this part of the legislature is valuable and important. We hope to see further Bills being subject to that process.

I do not agree with the noble Lords, Lord Carmichael and Lord Addington, in their displeasure with the Moses Room process. We are convinced in this instance that it enabled the Bill to be discussed without the constraints of time which are so often imposed when Bills are discussed on the Floor of this Chamber. It gave me as Minister proximity to officials, which was useful when we were discussing some of the more technical and complex clauses in the Bill. That enabled me to deliver at speed much more useful, constructive and accurate answers to the points raised around the House. I remind the House that Bills are only consigned to the Moses Room after a decision is reached through the usual channels. It is therefore for the House to decide what is and what is not put through that system.

I commend my noble friend Lady Carnegy for highlighting the important issues of Part II of the Bill—that is, nursery vouchers—and especially her principal point that it demonstrated a lack of confidence among local authorities. I agree that they seem nervous about the introduction of parental choice that comes with a voucher system. I illustrated through my own experience the high standing that local authority education has with most Scottish parents. Despite having choice, I have chosen, ahead of the private or voluntary sector, local authority education because it delivers a very good and a high value service.

I am convinced that the introduction of the nursery vouchers scheme and the anticipated expansion of pre-five education in Scotland will see the local authorities, which are already the major providers, being the major beneficiaries. There are others apart from myself who share this confidence in their future. We are also determined that as far as possible parents are able to make the decisions about their children and about their children's education. That is inherent in the provisions contained in Part II of the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, was incorrect when he said that children with special educational needs would be the losers. I can assure the noble Lord that that is not the case. If any circumstances suggest that it might be, we will act to counter those circumstances. The Government are committed to proper provision for special educational needs. Local authorities are responsible for provision for recorded children from the age of two and indeed have adequate existing powers in relation to others. They will retain all these important powers and duties for special educational needs in the pre-school sector. The various financial calculations which have to be made prior to the voucher system being introduced will not touch the money that local authorities allocate to those children who have special educational needs. Differential voucher values are probably not in the best interests of children because there is a danger of stigmatisation. But I would pay tribute to the excellent work done by education authorities both for children without special needs and for children with special needs.

I am grateful for the remarks of the various noble Lords who have supported the Bill, if not in its entirety then certainly in many of its parts. I am certain that their efforts will also be much appreciated when the Bill comes to be considered in another place. I commend the Bill to the House.

On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.