Discrimination: Monitoring in DSS and Agencies (Hansard, 14 May 1996)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Social Security (Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish)
My Lords, there is no separate budget for equality monitoring. The great majority of equal opportunities monitoring is carried out as an integral part of the wider monitoring of the department's personnel work and this will continue.

§ Lord Ashley of Stoke
My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. But is the Minister aware that that is at odds with a report in the Guardian which made it very clear that cuts are proposed? In fact, the Minister for disabled people commented on the proposed cuts and their effect. Is the Minister aware that all anti-discrimination policies are merely hot air unless they are monitored effectively? The proposed cuts which have been reported will undoubtedly lead to less effective monitoring on disablement, sex and race by the department. That 390 would be extremely regrettable because the Government should lead by example. Despite the Minister's response, it looks as though they are leading a retreat.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Ashley of Stoke, that equal opportunities monitoring will continue in the department. But of course, we must look critically at our costs across the board in relation to how the department is run.
As regards disability, we are signed up to the fast-track scheme, a development programme for graduates with disabilities, at a cost of £20,000 over two years. We also provide disability awareness training at a cost of £20,000. We have a significant number of registered disabled staff and, in addition, there is an equally significant number of disabled staff who do not register.

§ Lord Clark of Kempston
My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that many of the reports coming from the Guardian should be treated with a large pinch of salt because, in many cases, they are misguided and misinform the general public? However, does he not agree that his department should discriminate in particular between fraudulent and genuine claims?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I shall not comment on whether or not one should believe everything that one reads in the Guardian. That is largely because I do not read it myself and therefore am unable to make a judgment about such matters.
The second part of my noble friend's question is somewhat wider than his initial remark. My noble friend is quite right. The department is always working to make sure that we discriminate between those who genuinely require benefits and those who are making fraudulent claims. Currently, there is a very successful campaign taking place throughout the country to weed out those people who are making fraudulent claims.

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the DSS is proposing a 50 per cent. cut in its budget for monitoring discrimination? Will he confirm what his honourable friend, Mr. Alistair Burt, said; namely, that: We have decided not to undertake any ethnicity follow-up surveys within the department or its agencies in the next three years"? He then went on to say: This action will not affect our ability to promote equal opportunities and eliminate discrimination in the workplace". If the Government do not monitor, how will they know?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the position is quite simple. We have undertaken ethnicity monitoring and we have had a very good response to that—something like 86 per cent. When we looked at all the other demands on the taxpayers' money in the department's budget, we decided that we should not undertake any ethnicity monitoring for the next three years following the surveys that we already have. That does not mean that our personnel department will not be actively pursuing equal opportunities for people on grounds of race, sex, or disablement.

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, if the Government do not monitor, how do they know whether those purposes are being fulfilled?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, we shall monitor equal opportunities across the board. The point about the ethnicity study is that that sought to establish how many people of different ethnic groups work in the department and its agencies. The most important point is that we have a good base for those figures. There was an 86 per cent. return. We shall continue to monitor equal opportunities and, as I indicated, I believe that my department has an extremely good record in relation to disability.

§ Lord Ashley of Stoke
My Lords, will the Minister not agree that, first, he gave the House the clear impression that there had been no cuts and now he seems to be indicating that there are cuts? Secondly, there is no question of anyone believing all that they read in the papers, but this is a case of believing a specific report which includes the comments of one of the noble Lord's ministerial colleagues acknowledging the point. Will the Minister please tell the House exactly where the Government stand? At first they said that we did not need anti-discrimination legislation on disability and opposed successive Bills for 13 years. They then said that we do require anti-discrimination legislation and they brought forward a Bill. They are now saying that they will cut the amount of monitoring which takes place. Will the Minister tell the House whether the Government are coming or going?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the Government are governing this country extremely sensibly. They are keeping public expenditure under control in a way which the Opposition certainly would not do because they oppose every proposal which I bring before your Lordships' House to contain government spending. But I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, is not more generous in his appreciation of the fact that we piloted last year the Disability Discrimination Act. We—and especially my honourable friend Mr. Alistair Burt—are working very hard on implementing that Act.
As I indicated, we have taken steps to control the overall budget of the department. That includes the particular aspect of ethnic monitoring and so on. But I indicated quite clearly in my original Answer to the noble Lord that we spend money and time on ensuring that disabled people in the DSS are able to play a full part, right up to some of the highest levels of the officials in the department.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, in his early replies the Minister mentioned sex, race and disability discrimination. He did not mention age discrimination. As the reports are now showing, about 50 per cent. of people aged over 55 are not employed. Therefore, the country is losing a great deal of commitment and ability. Will the department and, indeed, all government departments give a lead to industry by employing a higher proportion of people over the age of 55?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the subject raised by the noble Lord is one about which 392 I become increasingly concerned with every passing year. However, I shall have to look into that particular matter for the noble Lord because the discrimination in the Question only focused on three grounds. However, as the balance of working people in the country to retired people continues to move in an adverse direction, I have little doubt that many employers, including ourselves as government, will realise the importance of employing people right up to the age of retirement.

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, will the Minister comment on the fact that there is very clear evidence to show that people are discriminated against on the grounds of ethnicity? Further, can the noble Lord inform the House as to whether the Government's record as employers during the period when they have been monitoring the issue has achieved a result whereby they are totally satisfied that there is total equality of opportunity in the department and that all sections of the community are fully represented? What sort of example are the Government giving to other employers?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I must begin by saying that I utterly refute what the noble Baroness said at the start of her remarks. If the noble Baroness has knowledge of any cases of discrimination in my department then I suggest that she writes to me on the matter. However, if she has not, I very much regret the fact that she chose to imply that she does have knowledge of such cases. We do know where are staff come from, so to speak—especially the disabled members—and we certainly know the sex distribution. Indeed, 67 per cent. of all the staff in the Department of Social Security are women. Moreover, 6 per cent. of all our staff belong to ethnic minorities. When one considers that our offices are scattered throughout the length and breadth of the country, I believe that those figures are very good.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the level of unemployment is unacceptably high among all classes, but that some of the worst figures are seen at the younger end of the social structure? Therefore, is it not sometimes a little dangerous to select one group of people—for example, on the basis of age—and go too far down that road at the expense of other groups? Is not the answer to provide more jobs in the general sense? Will the Government start to do so?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dean, that it is important that more jobs are provided. Indeed, this Government have had an extremely successful record, with more jobs in the economy. The rate of unemployment, especially youth unemployment, is coming down and, in comparison with our major European friends, we are in a far better position, largely because we have not signed up to things like the social chapter.

§ Lord Clark of Kempston
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that, so far as concerns age discrimination, the efforts of Marks & Spencer and of British Airways in advocating the employment of people of a mature age is to be welcomed?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
Yes, my Lords; I agree with my noble friend Lord Clark of Kempston. So far as concerns the economy, as I said in an earlier reply on the question of age, it is particularly important as the ratios between the economically active and the retired move in the wrong direction that employers look towards making more use of people who are still very able to be economically active. Indeed, those people can offer employers a good employee and often one who is very loyal and who can be relied upon.

§ Baroness Lockwood
My Lords, as regards the monitoring in the Minister's department, can the Minister tell the House in which grades the 67 per cent. of women that he mentioned are to be found?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
Indeed, my Lords; I thought that I might be asked that question. Out of the 67 per cent. of all staff in the DSS who are women, 74 per cent. are in clerical and equivalent grades; 56 per cent. are in junior and middle-management grades; and 24 per cent. of senior management grades are filled by women. Moreover, as I am sure the noble Baroness knows, the DSS is headed by a permanent secretary who is a woman.

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, will the Minister inform the House as to whether there is clear evidence that young people, in particular from ethnic minority and black communities, suffer employment disproportionately? Does the noble Lord agree that the ministry has a responsibility to monitor its employment pattern and ensure that it plays its part in helping that particularly vulnerable group?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, we play our part in ensuring that, when recruiting people, we do not discriminate against them on any grounds. Indeed, we take people who can do the job regardless of such factors. In fact, of the administrative assistants and equivalent grades in the DSS, 8.6 per cent. represent ethnic minorities. I believe that that figure suggests that, in those areas where there are ethnic minorities in some numbers, we do try to recruit from that group in particular.