Sheep Dips: 1952 Scab Eradication Programme (Hansard, 13 March 1996)

Lord Lucas
My Lords, the annual report of the Animal Health Services in Great Britain shows that at the end of 1952, 216 dips were approved by the Ministry for use when sheep were required to be dipped to treat sheep scab. Of these, 95 were of the tar acid class, 54 arsenical, one lime and sulphur, one soda sulphide and 65 benzene-hexachloride.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Is it not an indication that sheep scab can be controlled with the very much more potent chemicals that we have now? Was not a major factor in the control of sheep scab in the 1950s the policing of the dipping to make sure that every single sheep was dipped, and we then got rid of scab? Is it not the case now that the incidence of scab is increasing rapidly? Have the Government costed the effectiveness of having 841 a supervised double dip, with every sheep being brought in from the hills, and of humanely shooting any sheep that cannot be brought in for some reason or another?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, one of the difficulties that we face is that the dipping compounds that we now use are not so effective as those that we had in the 1950s. Benzene-hexachloride, otherwise known as Lindane, its active constituent, was extremely effective, extremely long-lasting and generally nasty to people and the environment. Although organophosphorus compounds are good, they are not so effective and are much more liable to lead to problems such as becoming too dilute in the dip and, as a result, mites escape. That resulted in a long campaign of compulsory dipping which failed to eliminate sheep scab or to get us to the same position as we had achieved 20 or 30 years earlier. At the end of that, we concluded that there was no point in continuing compulsory dipping because it was not achieving the objective that it had set out to achieve. If we were to attempt to embark on the sort of campaign which the noble Countess suggests, of having every sheep in the country dipped on one single day, our back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that that would cost about £15 million. On the other hand, it would take only one farmer somewhere to misbehave and the whole exercise would not have been worth while.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, according to the very latest information, 11,464 shepherds and flockmasters have certificates of competence in sheep dipping although there are some 56,000 shepherds and flockmasters in the United Kingdom? What are the Government doing about the 45,000 who are presumably using these dangerous chemicals without the proper protection?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, I sincerely hope that they are not using those chemicals without the proper protection. There has been a great deal of publicity about the protection that should be used—not least because of the efforts of the noble Countess and her colleagues. The noble Lord is right about the number of certificates in issue. He always knows things ahead of me—

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
True!

Lord Lucas
My Lords, the Veterinary Products Committee is reviewing the effectiveness of the scheme and while it is doing so I do not want to comment one way or the other as to how satisfied we might be with it.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, I have to come clean. I received that figure from the Minister about five minutes ago.

§ Viscount Mersey
My Lords, is it not now possible to develop a type of sheep which is entirely resistant to scab, by cloning?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, we would have to call it a "New Labour" sheep.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to ask the Government to reconsider my 842 proposition? I was not asking for all sheep to be dipped on one day because the products that are available at the moment—incidentally, some take the form of injections—are effective for at least a fortnight. The dipping could be spread over that period and could be carried out area by area, with the sheep being confined to those areas concerned for the period during which the dipping is carried out. This is a serious matter—I am concerned about sheep welfare as well as human welfare—and many sheep are suffering because of the increase in sheep scab and the failure of some farmers to dip. Only some farmers do not dip properly. It is certainly not true of them all.

Lord Lucas
My Lords, if there emerged in the community of sheep farmers a wish for that to be done and a determination to eliminate sheep scab, which we do not see or sense at the moment, we would take seriously the suggestion of the noble Countess. We feel that at the moment any such programme would be more than likely to fail and would turn out to have been a waste of effort and resources.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, is it not the case that there are no longer country policemen in the parishes to supervise any such programme?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am sure that we could find people to supervise the programme if we set out to do that. At the moment, country policemen have better things to do.